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[–] 55 points 1 day ago (17 children)

Its nonsense.

a) 16oz is 0.5 liters. To evaporate 0.5 litres from 20c to 101c you need 361 Wh of energy. An nvidia B300, top out at 1400W. In order for a single prompt to use 361Wh on a B300, the prompt needs to take 15 minutes to run. Thats clearly not happening.

b) Even when water is used to cool GPUs, it isn't destroyed. Its heated, and then cooled down again. The water just moves heat around the system, it doesnt get destroyed

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/water-heating

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  • [–] 15 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    Okay, while I do suspect the 16oz number is pulled from someone's ass (or just very old, many efficiency improvements ago), there are a couple of things to consider:

    a) A single B300 won't even run frontier models. It only has 288 GB of HBM. The DGX B300 server has 2.1 TB, which I suspect is not enough either (running Qwen 3.8 Max lossless (BF16) requires 4.9 TB just to load the model). But these are run in clusters anyway and any single user's prompt only uses a tiny percentage of the compute from tons of servers. OpenAI and Anthropic are going for size with their models so the most expensive ones probably need even more than Qwen.

    b) While the GPUs themselves are directly cooled by closed loops, the water inside those closed loops is often cooled by evaporative coolers, or even AC and evaporative cooling in tandem (that allows the evaporation to happen outside the datacenter itself). That's because evaporative cooling is the most energy efficient form of cooling.

    There are companies offering very complex heat systems that take advantage of multiple forms of cooling because they're making 100+ kW racks these days and talking of 500-1000 kW racks in the future. Ridiculous numbers, honestly.

    This is from some company's website that offers cooling solutions: Notice the outside "cooling tower" - those can be dry or wet. In a hot and dry climate, you'd want wet. It'll cool really well. In a colder and more humid climate, dry might work better. They also optionally let you heat the aquifer apparently, which is bound to cause issues for everyone living nearby over time.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 day ago

    The b300 figure is to give a sense of scale, its clearly more on the order of milliliters per query than half a liter.

    Evaporating water into the atmostsphere is really just recirculating it, it hasn't spoiled the water or destroyed it.

    The problem with the 16oz number is that its so clearly wrong that is discredits any other valid arguments. If complaints about ai resource usage want to be taken seriously, forget the water "usage" and worry about the gas/coal/diesel generators pumping carbon directly into the atmosphere. Because that is far more concerning that water getting cycled through the water cycle.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 day ago (8 children)

    You're talking about closed water cooling systems, which are ethical and more expensive.

    Now can you guess how many data centers use those?

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  • [–] 1 point 20 hours ago (3 children)

    Ethical would be if you dumped the heat into space and only used solar power.

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  • [–] 1 point 19 hours ago* (2 children)

    Ethical would be if you dumped the Tech Bros into space and switched to solar power.

    Make them fly there on one of their own rockets, for the irony.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 day ago (3 children)

    If we are playing the guessing game, almost all of them. Its not that expensive to build and run a closed loop water system. You cant just run plain tap water through cooling loops, it needs to be distilled or treated, or youll grow mold inside the loops and get clogs.

    Provide your source for these data centres using open loop systems.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 day ago

    Almost none of them run closed loop systems. They’re extremely expensive, and even if they did they actually still use just as much water, it’s just that the water is now being spent at a gas or coal power plant instead of on site due to the increased energy usage.

    The systems that most data centers use are called adiabatic cooling systems. They evaporate water after a closed loop because the problem isn’t moving the heat away from the servers, it’s getting rid of them fast enough.

    Conveniently most data center providers provide absolutely no statistics about these things because they look very bad to the public, but researchers have calculated usage.

    https://datacenters.microsoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Azure_Modern-Datacenter-Cooling_Infographic.pdf

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/09/18/energy-ai-use-electricity-water-data-centers/

    https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/data-centers-and-water-consumption

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  • [–] 11 points 1 day ago

    They use evaporative cooling on the AC that actually cools the inside of the data center. Evaporating water cools things down significantly more than simply splashing cold water at them.

    This significantly reduces their costs on electricity because AC runs much more efficiently when the condenser side is cool.

    They do not (usually) use evaporative cooling on the GPUs themselves. Evaporative cooling is used more directly too, but the indirect variant is better because it doesn't raise the humidity inside the data center. This is why so many data centers are being built in deserts now (well this and the cheap land).

    When they do use it without the heat pump/AC in tandem, then it means pushing hot air through a water soaked membrane, not using all that water in the coolant pipes for the servers. The closed loop is still closed, the evaporation happens outside of the loop.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

    I believe the paper was looking at total footprint including building and running data centers with open evaporative cooling, and the water "used" by civilian power stations.

    I don't really see more water in the air as the most pressing environmental issue around data centers. That's better than the water being destroyed or contaminated.

    The main environmental hazard of data centers is the rapid expansion of them. The running of them for months on end in the training of models... And above all else, the fact billionaires have chosen to power them in the least environmentally friendly ways (gas and disel):

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dirty+power+ai+data+centers+powered+by

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    I'm much more concerned about the electricity going in as well. If they want to build these huge power sinks, they should be required to build their own green power for them as well, not just buy from the already constrained grid. And burning gas or any other fossil fuel for them is just madness.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    Yep, we're paying for answers we know are wrong, using the currency of environmental health. It's probably the dumbest thing I've seen humanity do.

    People who use the technology need to use things like AnythingLLM for running answer machines locally (yes, AnythingLLM can go online, search websites, and do GPT style answering)... and something like Kolbold.cpp (also run locally) for creative writing tasks.

    AnythingLLM is very simple to set up, Kolbold.cpp has tutorials on YouTube and is far less restrictive than ChatGPT. Both avoid interacting with AI data centers (now the available models have already been trained).

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago

    Self hosted definitely is the way to go. I have a second hand Intel nuc + nvidia p100 setup, and its more than enough for what I need it to be. And it only uses 250w when im using it, I turn it off when I'm done. Plus my power is all my own solar, so effectively free.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 day ago*

    I think you're right about the number being nonsense, but water not being destroyed doesn't mean you haven't converted potable water to non-potable water, and it is still important at the actual scale of water that data centers are using for cooling to the localities they operate in.

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