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[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 46 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I can understand explicit calls to violence being disallowed. As happy I'd be if all Nazis just didn't wake up one day, we don't need vigilantes going around deciding who to commit attempted murder against

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[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 7 hours ago (1 child)

When people no longer trust the justice system to provide justice, they end up relying on alternatives. Is it the ideal solution? Obviously not. However, I'm not going to sit here and say the French resistance was wrong because they didn't have the backing of their government. There's obviously a gray area where anyone would agree it's acceptable and not.

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[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 hours ago (1 child)

An organized revolution is different from random acts of vigilante violence

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[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 point 57 minutes ago

Sure, but if you think the entire French resistance was organized then you don't really know what you're talking about. There were plenty of individual acts. Insisting it must be organized, and then insisting that it must meet a certain level of organization, is only insisting that nothing is allowed. All revolution requires a certain amount of disorganization, or everything is centralized and is easy to topple.

Also, nothing in the above said for it to be unorganized. You previously only insisted acting outside the justice system is wrong, and now you've stepped back from that stance. It's progress I guess, but you don't see the bigger picture yet.

The media's "all violence is evil" propaganda insists that the state has a monopoly on violence. They're allowed to use it to keep us in line, but we can't use it to keep them in line. The reality is that there should be no solid line. Every individual will have a certain tolerance and threshold for violence. Literally no one is at zero for both. Everyone knows violence must be used sometimes, but they disagree on when and by whom.

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[–] zikzak025@lemmy.world 27 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

You know, that is a fair take. It's easy to pass judgment, but less easy to trust that everyone else would pass the same judgment on the same people you do.

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[–] RoddyStiggs@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 1 day ago (1 child)

Vigilantes are welcome to fight Nazis. Full stop.

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[–] captcha_incorrect@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (1 child)

We want to fight Nazis, on that we agree. Then who are these people? We have a court system, an agreed upon authority to make such decisions.

Vigilante1 thinks Mister X is a Nazi, Vigilante2 does not think so. Who is right? Who decides here? I say a court does and this is why I think we can't just go around and murder people.

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[–] RoddyStiggs@lemmy.blahaj.zone -5 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Don't live in a way that would make ANYONE think you're a Nazi, and then it's not a problem.

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[–] captcha_incorrect@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (1 child)

Sure, but as soon as just one person thinks someone else is a Nazi, should we kill them?

Again, I am not saying that it is cool to be a Nazi, I am saying that we can't just go around persecuting people willy nilly. That is why we have a justice system and a court. Other wise we might just as well do away with them and do as they did to witches in the middle ages.

I deem thee to be a witch, now thou shall burn at the stake.

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[–] RoddyStiggs@lemmy.blahaj.zone -3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Nope. What you're saying isn't how it works.

Nazis are objectively intolerable and easily identifiable. They are reprehensible enough that reasonable people will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid any appearance of association or alignment with them.

If you disagree, that is a YOU problem and you are no longer welcome to talk to me until YOU solve it.

Period.

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[–] captcha_incorrect@lemmy.world 0 points 16 hours ago (1 child)

In your opinion, is the qualifications for a Nazi universally understood and agreed upon? As in, everyone in our society has the same opinion regarding what makes a person a Nazi?

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[–] RoddyStiggs@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 13 hours ago

Anyone worth respect.

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[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

See, some people would identify me as a Nazi for saying "I don't want random people going around killing people they think are Nazis based on their own judgment".

We live in a world where people decide to be Nazis. So obviously, I don't trust the judgment of every human being out there.

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[–] Crescent@fedinsfw.app 3 points 1 day ago

With the way that term is being thrown around these days, that is a dangerous assumption.

If I call you a nazi because I don't like your comment, and then you call me nazi back, does that mean we should both die?

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[–] krashmo@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago* (1 child)

The longer it takes for the justice system to do anything useful the more it feels like that's exactly what we need.

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[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 day ago (1 child)

The biggest problem is that the Nazis will use that excuse too.

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[–] krashmo@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

Sure, but if the law doesn't stop them then somebody else is going to have to anyway.

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[–] magnue@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

You deserved the ban.

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[–] OctopusNemeses@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It's basically another tradition for reddit clones to surreptitiously setup beachheads for nazis. The ultimate effect of that is the site kills itself before it can ever become popular.

I've seen this pattern enough over the years. Reddit is the only OG that managed to succeed in spite of welcoming nazis.

Now that "hiding your power level" isn't a thing anymore, they can't help but run openly amok, which drives people away. They stayed in their own festering corners of reddit until 2016.

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[–] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 3 points 1 day ago

because it wasnt inhabited by them first.

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[–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Reddit wasn't popular until Digg dugg its own grave.

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[–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 3 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Please, do not murder nazis. They are not in any position of power. If you meet one of them in isolation, try to talk with them and understand their reasons, then explain your ideas.

If you meet a group of them, have a beer with them and have a chat.

If you meet a group of them attempting to perpetrate violence, call to your network of contacts, organize immediately and beat the shit out of them.

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[–] Whostosay@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 day ago

Nazi's inherently don't adhere to the social contract. Do not run the nazi bar. A seen nazi is a punched Nazi on sight.

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[–] piskertariot@lemmy.world 9 points 2 days ago (1 child)

Complete disagree.

Displaying nazi imagery is a choice. A choice that should only be met with immediate violence lest they learn that it is ok.

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[–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 5 points 2 days ago (1 child)

As you can see from my message above, I'm not completely against violence.

But if that's the way you conduct your life, I'm afraid you'll soon end up in jail.

If that is not the case then you either never see nazis, which is not so common these days, or you're speaking empty words.

I had those kind of confrontations which end up in people picking up sticks and taking out knives with congregations of neofascists in order to protect the integrity of places, in periods in which those were being targeted and it was quite common to hear someone from your circle of friends had gotten murdered while getting back home.

What are you talking about?

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[–] piskertariot@lemmy.world -3 points 2 days ago (1 child)

I'm talking about Tildes. And how they temp banned me for suggesting that violence against nazis in public is justified.

It's English. It goes from left to right, one word at a time. In this forum, messages are left underneath each other, suggesting the order in which they were made.

You can read them up above, if you use your eyes. Where you said I should take nazis out for a drink. Do you know what a bar that serves nazis is called? A nazi bar.

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[–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 6 points 2 days ago (1 child)

You are talking about tildes, I am sure. You were complaining because you were banned for suggesting killing Nazi people.

I did not reply regarding tilde itself: I have never used the service. Either way, the ban makes sense to me: do not suggest killing people.

I gave advice on how to handle situations and on how a situation when you meet a Nazi may be handled. You may disagree with me on that, that is fine.

But I doubt you go around killing Nazis with your car very often.

Do you know what a bar that serves nazis is called? A nazi bar.

No. Just a normal bar. At this point to be fair I don't even know what you're referring to as Nazi. There are neonazists in several countries indeed, I guess you refer to those.

Those are people who live their lives, they have a terrible ideology in their mind. Starting to violently attack them for no reason would lead them to get more defensive, closed and ready to fight.

Having a chat with them and reasoning about their problems may lead to some of them opening up.

That does not mean you should not defend yourself need should come, as I said I had experience with that.

From your reply I read you do not have much experience with this. If you do not, do not go around telling people to hit people with their car. If you do, why the hell are you telling people to hit Nazis with their car?

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[–] gandalfthewhite@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago

Most people that think that way or any similar way are responding to something real, but their response goes in the wrong direction. That is why open discourse and being open and honest with people is the most important path to take. People are generally reasonable if you approach with sincerity of heart. The idea that you'll save the world with sudden unprokoved violence and anger is more misguided than the person who simply holds misguided beliefs. Part of the journey of personal growth is figuring that out.