In debate with a fervently liberal friend, the concept of sources will inevitably come up. I haven't had the displeasure of having to argue about China being socialist or the USSR not being literal Hell on earth with my friends yet, but I can tell that things are getting to a boiling point where their takes will inevitably come into conflict with mine. He is already made claims about 'China colonizing Africa' and that 'Mongolia should be in NATO because it is afraid of China' and of course Xinjiang and Tiananmen Square propaganda.

Of course, when the liberal says 'sources,' they don't mean theory or logic or any of that nonsense. The liberal doesn't need those things on account of their politics being based on vibes. No, the liberal wants trustworthy, unbiased sources. If I link China Daily News, it's of course gonna be a propaganda outlet with no actual evidence behind it. If I link AP, Reuters, or ABC, it's of course unbiased reporting that may have fell through once or twice, but is generally trustworthy. Their journalists are bought, paid for, natural liars, whereas our journalists are upstanding pillars of truth. The CIA may buy a few here and there, and even admit to it (Operation Mockingbird) but of course not all of them are lying, that'd be ridiculous!

Essentially, I'm asking for sources that support the Marxist-Leninist outlook of the world that would look good for a liberal, someone who normally looks for Amnesty International, or the UN, or NATO for citations. They don't have to be explicitly ML, and honestly it's better if they aren't, but I'd just need some trustworthy sources on something like disproving the Uyghur Genocide myth or something showing that Stalin wasn't Hitler².

To give you an idea of how bad he is, I mentioned to him that the CIA released a document claiming they found no evidence of voter fraud in Maduro's election and he:

  1. Laughed and said: "Yeah there was no election fraud, like there's no election fraud in North Korea." Implying that the people were somehow too scared to vote against Maduro but weren't otherwise coerced or frauded, and no evidence of that was found.
  2. Immediately started huffing the largest cloud of copium he could find by blaming it on the token American liberal scapegoat: "Wait, who made that claim? Was it Trump? I thought the US has hated Maduro for a long time."

Of course I understand that predominant Western propaganda outlets will not have pro-China or pro-USSR information on them. I'm not expecting Reuters to have published an article on why China is socialist and there is no Uyghur genocide, I just need something that would pass the smell test to a liberal. It can be number data on Africa-China economic relations, global poverty data, climate data, or reported information about certain events that appear to counter the Western narrative. A good example of this is Fitzpatrick's The Shortest History of the Soviet Union, as she is a liberal historian but delivers a predominantly unbiased history of the USSR in the perspective of the time. Thank you all in advance!

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[–] 21 points 2 days ago (3 children)

The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.

However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let's just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.

This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City's biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.

According to Wikipedia, "The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000." Let's assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?

Let's do some math:

Rikers Size Rikers Prisoners One Million Uyghurs Size
413.2 acres (0.645 square miles) 10,000 to 15,000 43 to 64 square miles

In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.

For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You'd literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It'd be like looking at a map of California. There's Los Angeles. There's San Diego. And look, there's San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.

Literally visible to the naked eye from space.

CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective.

Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.

Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”

Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.

Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.

Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.

The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.

It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:

US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/

Here's an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html

Here's an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on "atrocities" are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/

It's also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.

Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they're unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9

There's a further list of debunking here if you're interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/

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