Aeao comments on the elephant mops the room

[–] Aeao@lemmy.world -1 points 3 days ago (1 child)

I see so you’re saying Stalin was more of a figurehead and not some sort of person “in charge” of the operation of the party and thus his leadership is irrelevant to what the party was doing? A man who kept his personal beliefs from influencing the government as a whole?

Look I don’t even hate communism no more than I hate capitalism. “Real (insert your view) had never been tried! These problems aren’t a problem with the system, the leaders aren’t really trying to be pure (blank)”

I get it. Don’t get fooled into thinking communism around the world is some great utopian dream. Racism, exploitation, corruption… it’s the same everywhere. You’re eating cereal and believing the blue bits aren’t the same flavor as the red bits. It’s an illusion.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I see so you’re saying Stalin was more of a figurehead and not some sort of person “in charge” of the operation of the party and thus his leadership is irrelevant to what the party was doing?

No, I'm saying that just because you can point to Stalin's personal racism doesn't mean that the party itself integrated racism into the party platform. You claimed that the Communist Party was racist, and then used pogroms as an example, but none of the pogroms in the region were executed by the Community Party and the ONE retreat you have presented is that Stalin wanted to harm the Jews but ultimately the party did not. That's not evidence for your position. It's evidence against your position.

Don’t get fooled into thinking communism around the world is some great utopian dream

You don't have to protect me. I promise. I'm a big kid now. I wear big kid pants and I almost never wet my bed anymore.

Racism, … it’s the same everywhere

No. It's not. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of racism, and you really need to educate yourself. Racism as you and I know it is European racism. It is a distinct historical process. It has a starting point, it has a historical development driven by historical material conditions, and it spread around the world via the European empire. It is not some kind of platonic ideal, it is a specific construction.

exploitation, corruption … it’s the same everywhere

Absolutely. These are words we use to describe the behavior of systems. The systems exhibit these behaviors to a greater or lesser extent and they have different reactions to these behaviors.

For example, when business leaders in China cut corners and sold tainted baby formula to make more money, and it resulted in sick and dead babies, the state executed them. Meanwhile, Nestle kills babies all over the world and the US calls it "shareholder supremacy".

So yes, exploitation and corruption ARE the same everywhere, but different systems stand in different relation to these phenomena.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 4 child comments

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 1 point 3 days ago

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

[–] Aeao@lemmy.world 0 points 3 days ago (1 child)

You seem to be confused.

The doctors plot happened. Many Jewish people were rounded up tortured and executed by the regime! People died for being Jewish. Stalin died before rounding up all the Jews but the communist party rounded up and killed Jews for being Jews. That happened.

“And this wasn’t an isolated incident. It came after several years of increasingly antisemitic repression under Stalin, including the campaign against supposed “cosmopolitans” and the destruction of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee”

Oh I see all the racism in Russia is actually everyone else’s fault not Russia. Got it.

The Han Chinese were already racist before communism so it doesn’t count either.

Wow I’m so glad communists regimes can’t be racist because nothing counts.

You say I have “one” example. The truth is I just don’t have all day to list the many many examples. Especially since after each example I give you’ll only stomp your feet and say “that doesn’t count!” Every time. What’s the point.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 days ago (1 child)

The doctors plot happened

Yes, several hundred people were arrested and interrogated for a suspected plot against the country's leadership. I wouldn't exactly call that a pogrom. Fewer people died than the US police kill in a month.

That happened.

Yes, it did. I don't deny it. I just don't think your characterization of it matches the reality.

the destruction of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee

The JAC was created by the Communist Party at the order of Joseph Stalin. It wasn't something separate that the Communist Party then attacked. Stalin convinced the leadership to disband the formation because he believed that their international connections with England and the US vis-a-vis Israel was actually problematic. What do you think? Was he perhaps right about this? Did he see in the structural formation of the international Zionist movement something that maybe wasn't the best thing to be part of a communist party? I think perhaps he was correct in this regard, given everything we've seen coming out of Israel.

It came after several years of increasingly antisemitic repression under Stalin

Yes, Stalin did in fact do this. He ordered it, he organized it, he oversaw it. For 5 years. Out of 70. So your claim that the communist party was a racist organization because of 7.2% of their existence under a single 5-year term of a single leader is really grasping. I don't disagree with you about Stalin's particular 5-year anti-semitism spree.

Oh I see all the racism in Russia is actually everyone else’s fault not Russia. Got it.

Yeah, obviously you don't got it. You have a specific rhetorical goal and everything that supports it is grand narrative and everything against it is specious. Sorry. I don't respect your way of processing history.

The Han Chinese were already racist before communism so it doesn’t count either.

Yeah, that's not what I said. I said that the specific ways in which the Han were Han supremacist prior to the communist party emerging were not only distinct from the communist party itself, which as all theory and practice shows incorporates the material conditions of its founding but that the CPC specifically has taken explicit action against Han supremacy because it recognizes it and acknowledges it as something that needs to be addressed. Something that is fundamentally different from liberal power structures around the world.

Wow I’m so glad communists regimes can’t be racist because nothing counts.

You really need to read more.

You say I have “one” example. The truth is I just don’t have all day to list the many many examples

You literally cited "pogroms" that never happened and then you cited The Doctor's Plot, which was not a pogrom, and I think I've thoroughly addressed it here. You can pretend you have so many examples that you're too busy to share, but I don't believe you, and I don't think anyone else does either.

Especially since after each example I give you’ll only stomp your feet and say “that doesn’t count!” Every time. What’s the point.

I mean, you can pretend that me providing historical context is stomping my feet, but what is in fact happening is you are stamping you're feet saying THE PARTY IS EVIL because a specific 5-year period of a party led by a single person acted against Jews and killed a relatively small number of them (although it did really do a lot of damage to Jewish institutions throughout the USSR, and it is a real black mark against Stalin and the Communist Party).

You're not convincing. You make overly broad claims, and then challenged you narrow your evidence but you don't narrow your claims. It's quite problematic for your position.

But I promise, I won't stamp my feet at you. I will only bring evidence and analysis.

permalink

fedilink

source

parent

hideshow 2 child comments