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Anger (thelemmy.club)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/tumblr@lemmy.world
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[–] 1 point 1 month ago* (8 children)

I already answered your ridiculous question.

Sorry, yes you did. I, ironically, got misdirected by the "strawman" bit.

My aim is to understand your thought process, check my own perspective, crowdsource actual solutions to little problems like fascism, and push back against misinformation/disinformation.

Specifically here, I'm trying to highlight the death spiral that results from the false dichotomy you seem trapped in. I don't have a solution, but I need you to understand your "solution" is a core component of the underlying problem.

Do you see that question as a strawman because I made the consequences explicitly personal instead of abstract? Is it less of a strawman to say "you will support genocide abroad so long as the Dems delay pulling the trigger by 1ns."?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (7 children)

    Specifically here, I’m trying to highlight the death spiral that results from the false dichotomy you seem trapped in. I don’t have a solution, but I need you to understand your “solution” is a core component of the underlying problem.

    It's not a false dichotomy, especially once the primaries are over.

    I guess you haven't paid much attention to how American elections work (or First Past the Post in general), but the party in third place has 3% of the vote, which is far from a plurality when the top two are at 35% and 30%. Because they're so far from plurality, they act as a "spoiler" party, harming the closest party to them.

    Do you see that question as a strawman because I made the consequences explicitly personal instead of abstract? Is it less of a strawman to say “you will support genocide abroad so long as the Dems delay pulling the trigger by 1ns.”?

    No, because you are still making up a position of mine to confirm via question. So I'll answer your new straw man of "you will support genocide abroad so long as the Dems delay pulling the trigger by 1ns." again:

    No, I don't/wouldn't.

    Are you seriously this confused on what a straw man argument is?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    It's not a false dichotomy

    It is. The Ds and Rs are not two separate monoliths. They are friends, coworkers, and individuals who's class/professional interests are directly in conflict with our own.

    I think you are misunderstanding my position. I am saying do not support or legitimize them and it is important to call them out on their bullshit instead of running cover for them. I do view voting for them as legitimization, I am asking the questions I am to try and provide you an opportunity to share some perspective that changes/conflicts/opposes that. So far, you have done the opposite.

    No, because you are still making up a position of mine to confirm via question.

    I am specifically asking for clarity around your previously stated position:

    If the Rs are enthusiastic about supporting genocide and the Ds are toying with going against it? I'll vote D.

    You have contradicted this statement twice now without any explanation as to why, or how it differs. What changed? The point of that "straw man" is for you to explicitly call it out and clarify where the difference lies. Just saying "strawman!" doesn't clarify anything for either of us.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (5 children)

    It is. The Ds and Rs are not two separate monoliths. They are friends, coworkers, and individuals who’s class/professional interests are directly in conflict with our own.

    Literally none of that has anything to do with whether or not we're talking about a false dichotomy.

    I think you're confused about what a "false dichotomy" is, or maybe you think "It is" is a good explanation for your reasoning. It isn't.

    I think you are misunderstanding my position. I am saying do not support or legitimize them and it is important to call them out on their bullshit instead of running cover for them. I do view voting for them as legitimization, I am asking the questions I am to try and provide you an opportunity to share some perspective that changes/conflicts/opposes that. So far, you have done the opposite.

    Again, this is based on your misunderstanding of First Past the Post voting systems.

    It's like if someone pointed a gun at your friend and your neighbor and said, "Who should I shoot? If you say nothing, I will shoot your friend."

    People like you say nothing and get their friend shot, but feel righteous for it, proud that they did not endorse murder of their neighbor.

    I am specifically asking for clarity around your previously stated position:

    If the Rs are enthusiastic about supporting genocide and the Ds are toying with going against it? I’ll vote D.

    You have contradicted this statement twice now without any explanation as to why, or how it differs.

    No I haven't. I get that you('re pretending you) don't understand my position despite explaining it to you several times, but that doesn't change the fact that I explained it. I can't make you understand it.

    When you ask silly questions based on straw men, you are not endeavoring to understand my position. It's fine if you don't actually want to, but stop wasting time pretending you do.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    It's like if someone pointed a gun at your friend and your neighbor and said, "Who should I shoot? If you say nothing, I will shoot your friend."

    I do kind of like this metaphor. So what do you do? Say "shoot me instead!"? You sacrificed yourself and the person shooting people still has your friend and neighbor at gunpoint. Why would the gunman do what you say, and if they do what is stopping them from shooting your friend and neighbor as well?

    Do you say "shoot my neighbor!"? Why would the gunman do what you say? He's more likely to shoot you for being bold and confident than anything, and next most likely to shoot your friend out of spite.

    Do you say "shoot yourself!"? While a clever response, I do agree this is the equivalent of "third party" voting. There is zero reason for the gunman to honor the rules of the game and suicide themselves.

    My position is there is no correct response to this game. The reason people are dying is because a deranged lunatic is shooting people, not how the victims are responding to the madman's game.

    I have heard your talking points parroted hundreds of times and I still do not understand. The metaphor you provided is a perfect example of what I don't understand about your position/perspective. What exactly were you trying to communicate with it?

    The message I am trying to get across is that the gunman can not be trusted, yet you insist that playing by their rules will somehow result in the best outcome and insisting my evidence otherwise will "drive voter apathy".

    How do you propose dealing with this metaphorical gunman?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    I do kind of like this metaphor. So what do you do? Say “shoot me instead!”? You sacrificed yourself and the person shooting people still has your friend and neighbor at gunpoint. Why would the gunman do what you say, and if they do what is stopping them from shooting your friend and neighbor as well?

    That's not applicable in either the metaphor or the literal situation any more than "I put on my robe and wizard hat and cast Delete Gun!"

    In other words you've managed to twist the metaphor in bad faith to suit your refusal to see what I was saying. Great job.

    Why would the gunman do what you say, and if they do what is stopping them from shooting your friend and neighbor as well?

    At least this bad faith slice of your twisting does actually have some real-world application. I'll use your logic against you:

    What's stopping your preferred politician/party from simply doing what you accuse/worry Rs and Ds (will) do?

    Obviously "Nothing" is the right answer, and the question itself is a cop-out.

    My position is there is no correct response to this game. The reason people are dying is because a deranged lunatic is shooting people, not how the victims are responding to the madman’s game.

    Yeah, again, you confirm that you would do nothing and let your friend be shot. Brilliant.

    I have heard your talking points parroted hundreds of times and I still do not understand. The metaphor you provided is a perfect example of what I don’t understand about your position/perspective. What exactly were you trying to communicate with it?

    That no matter how much we hope, beg, plead, wish, work, etc. to the contrary, some matters of real life boil down to brutal practicality and seeking the ideal solution is futile or counter-productive.

    Again, Donald Trump is president in large part because so many people sat home and refused to vote against him because Kamala Harris wasn't better enough for their tastes. That's thanks in large part to people like you, who insist on fueling political apathy.

    How do you propose dealing with this metaphorical gunman?

    I'd have them shoot the neighbor, as any rational chooser-of-lesser-evils would.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    I'd have them shoot the neighbor, as any rational chooser-of-lesser-evils would.

    That is insane! That is not a healthy society, nor behavior you want to encourage! If that was as widespread a belief system and if the rules were as rigid as you imagine you better pray you're the loudest, quickest and most ruthless person in the room because otherwise your neighbor will get you shot instead!

    You have such a lack of imagination and perspective and are so caught up in a worrld of imaginary bullshit rules that you would actively, and deliberately, hurt those around you. That is the problem!

    My neighbor is my friend as well. The only reason to "play" the gunman's game is to distract them while we work together to disarm them. That is the only move I see in that game. What am I missing?

    As they say, first they come for your neighbor, then for your friend, and when they come for you there's nobody left to speak up for you.

    What's stopping your preferred politician/party from simply doing what you accuse/worry Rs and Ds (will) do?

    In this metaphor: absolutely nothing! That's the whole goddamn point! Get out of your own head and try a different perspective! How do you change the situation so that isn't the case?

    Stop advocating for your neighbors death you psycho!

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    That is insane! That is not a healthy society, nor behavior you want to encourage!

    At what point did I say our democracy was healthy? You sure do love your straw men.

    In this metaphor: absolutely nothing! That’s the whole goddamn point! Get out of your own head and try a different perspective! How do you change the situation so that isn’t the case?

    By not sitting elections out because the Lesser Evil is still evil, duh. Push the needle in the right direction, don't avoid touching it because it's not in the best position yet.

    Stop advocating for your neighbors death you psycho!

    Lol, clear bad faith argument or further twisting of the metaphor to be ridiculous. I'm bored of your tactics. Have a nice life.

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