1321
Punish the Democrats, she says (thelemmy.club)
submitted 6 months ago by to c/leopardsatemyface@lemmy.world
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[–] 28 points 6 months ago (8 children)

Is there any possible way to disagree with you that you won't read as a Russian bot trying to undermine democracy?

It's such a thought-terminating cliche that anyone can use to dismiss any criticism. I could just as easily say that you're a DNC bot. Like, fuck critical thinking, I guess.

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  • [+] -6 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Why, of course there is! I certainly went from an early stance of "Israel is just defending itself from a terrorist attack" to "Alright, what they are doing to the civilian population in Gaza is clearly genocidal." Then I went on to include what the "settlers" are doing in the West Bank with tacit sanction of the government under the same genocidal umbrella.

    If the thesis is, "There was no attempt by Russian bots to sway public support of Palestinian civilians against the Democrats," you'd have a hard time convincing me.

    If the thesis is, "GenZ was well-informed about the plight of Palestinians before TikTok told them to look into it and shaped their opinion," also unlikely to convince me.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    If the thesis is, “There was no attempt by Russian bots to sway public support of Palestinian civilians against the Democrats,” you’d have a hard time convincing me.

    There are bots out there trying to convince everyone of everything. That in no way means that you get to dismiss everyone voicing a particular viewpoint as being a bot.

    If the thesis is, “GenZ was well-informed about the plight of Palestinians before TikTok told them to look into it and shaped their opinion,” also unlikely to convince me.

    And you believe that the thing that changed was bots and not video evidence of genocide?

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  • [–] -3 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    And you believe that the thing that changed was bots and not video evidence of genocide?

    I do not. GenZ reacted with horror to something horrific. The issue is that they didn't react with the same horror to horrific stories from before 2022 - settlers murdering Palestinian kids, soldiers walking away from torturing Palestinians, administrative detention that ran into the decades without any form of process.

    Note that I do not blame GenZ for this. American media has been silent on these things, and is largely silent to this day. What TikTok brought (and it scared Washington insiders) is a view of the world as it is, not as it is viewed through the interests of the USA.

    But, while I am very grateful that people started seeing the world outside of the propaganda machinery, I also realize that the recent exposure to the new information made the same people vulnerable to more propaganda and disinformation.

    The includes the idea that Democrats were worse or comparable to Republicans when it comes to the treatment of Muslims. Which is the point of the post.

    Trump's very first act in office in 2017 was to pass the Muslim ban executive order. He didn't care it was blatantly unconstitutional: it signaled a set of priorities, and discrimination and hatred towards Muslims of all kinds was the core of it.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (4 children)

    I think that the Democrats are comparable to Republicans on treatment of Muslims. Democrats have supported and armed the Palestinian genocide, as well as waging war elsewhere in the Middle East. I wouldn't say (and have never said) that they're worse than Republicans, but they're certainly comparable. I don't think that "materially supporting a genocide and forcibly silencing dissent, apologetically" and "materially supporting a genocide and forcibly silencing dissent, gleefully," are "incomperable."

    Is there any way for me to defend that position, or am I just automatically a bot, logic and evidence be damned?

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    You don't need my stamp of approval, but you definitely don't sound like a bot.

    I think the current situation in the Middle East, compared to two years ago, very clearly shows that the two parties are not in any way comparable as you claim. You seem to pick both reacting wrong to the same situation (the Gaza conflict/Palestinian genocide) as proof that they are the same and I find that claim disingenuous.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Really? So democratic presidents don't wage war in the Middle East?

    They also weren't just "reacting wrong to a situation." They (both Republicans and Democrats) have caused this situation. Who was it who said, "If Israel did not exist, the United States would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region?"

    There's been a near-complete bipartisan consensus on conquering the Middle East since at least Bush. Obama had every opportunity to withdraw and chose instead to double down, as well as orchestrating regime change in Libya. Everyone's also been quietly bombing Yemen for decades.

    The difference between them is mostly how concerned they are with legality and propriety. But both are committed to the imperial project of conquering the Middle East. Bipartisan support for arms to Israel to conquer Palestine (and Lebanon) The overthrow of governments in Libya and Syria. Direct invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. It's simply untrue to claim that this project started under Trump. Of course, Trump has mostly forgone the usual pretense of inventing pretexts for the aggression and is much more mask off about everything. But the overall goal is the same, Republicans are just dumber and more brazen about persuing it.

    Those bases aren't just there because of Trump.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    If you can't see the moral difference between starting a war and not ending if fast enough for your liking, that is probably your moral failing and not that of my logic.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago*

    If you can't see the fact that the Democrats have also started wars in the Middle East, that's probably a failing of your knowledge of history and current events and not of my logic.

    Have you heard of Libya?

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