cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/43729189
Stolen from r/marxism_memes
1936: The Rights the U.S. Still Won't Guarantee - Lady Izdihar (3 min 51 sex)
Constitution of the Soviet Union - 8th All-Union Congress of Soviets
This Soviet World / (Audiobook) - Anna Louise Strong (1936)
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Even if the ideals of the rebellion were founded in good intentions by the sailors, fighting against the newborn Socialist State played into counter-revolutionary hands and aided the fascist White Army in the middle of a brutal civil war. The sailors placed their own interests over the broader soviet people. It was also led by Petrichenko, who one year prior tried to join the White Army, and joined the White Army after the rebellion failed and the sailors turned on the rebellion. In addition, 2 former capitalists were included in the council leading the rebellion, and they arrested 300 communists in their mutiny.
Had it been a time of peace with no internal or external pressure and the same measures employed, my feelings would be different on the matter, but the facts are that the stated aims and the methods employed by the rebels were at direct contradiction in the middle of a civil war.
It’s not like Lenin hated Anarchists especially, Kropotkin was given a large State funeral and the largest rail station, Kropotkinskaya, was named after him. The Kronstadt Rebellion also factored in the transition between War Communism into the NEP.
Kronstadt, in the context of a bloody and brutal civil war against a dozen invading capitalist nations and a strong Tsarist white army, their demands were suicide for the socialists:
They wanted the bolsheviks to be stopped, and tie their hands and let the Tsarists and capitalists win. This was absolutely suicidal.
They wanted the bolsheviks disbanded, and replaced by SRs, mensheviks, anarchists, etc. The soviets were there, they just didn't like how they were made up. Further, the sailors that returned to the soviets were quite literally allowed to go to those meetings in 1936.
Yeah, for sure, totally.
Are you being serious with this response? The Kronstadt sailors didn't want more worker control, they were unhappy that the bolsheviks had majority support and sought to eliminate the ability to elect bolsheviks in the soviets. In other words, they were upset at the rest od the working classes for rallying behind the bolsheviks. They also sought to, as I quoted, abolish all communist fighting detachments and cordons. This would have led to an immediate loss of the civil war to the White Army. I thought you sought the "objective truth about anything and everything," not "whatever conforms to my existing biases."
As for Lenin and anarchists, he disagreed with them vehemontly, see Theses on Anarchism, but at the same time he praised "red anarchists" that fought alongside the red army and even joined it. He also respected Kropotkin, even meeting with him during the revolution. They disagreed, but Kropotkin ultimately hesitantly and critically supported the revolution as it was, though not what he wanted, still the siezure of worker power from the Tsar.
Also, Kropotkinskaya.
He liked the people who were subservient to his goals and chill with state authoritarianism? who knew. Wonder what happened to all those non-red Anarchists he didn't like?
The majority of the anarchists sided with the socialists over the Tsarists. Major figures like Kropotkin were protected even after the revolution. Anarchists were not hunted systematically, the ones that took up arms against the rest of the working classes were met with force, as is natural in a civil war.
Good thing you're here to set everyone straight on how awesome the USSR was, especially toward Anarchists, which is super duper cool of them.
Are you allergic to addressing the points I make, by any chance? Fighting between anarchists and socialists absolutely did happen, but this wasn't a blanket order to terrorize anarchists in particular. The bolsheviks ideologically struggled against anarchism, which itself was not as popular as Marxism in Russia (the opposite of the layer Spanish civil war, where anarchism was dominant). Anarchists by and large accepted socialism, with some deciding to go against the socialists and take up arms, which was definitely met with force.
No, I'm totally on board. Like after really looking at whacky stuff like this, it totally makes sense to just... Ya know, get rid of 'em. Like holy heck, how the hay could they not see all those things would immediately cause the socialist struggle to fail? They were absolute dumbos for not seeing the enlightened wisdom of the Marxist-Leninist party.
Like this one especially:
Totally, like 100% against the aims of a socialist revolution. Good thing 'ol Trotsky dealt with them until they stopped (by killing them instead of just talking with them). And then good thing 'ol Stalin dealt with that traitorous Trotksy later on (by killing him with an ice pick, very scientific I must say).
I knew it, you are ignoring my points. Why else would you link the Petropavlovsk resolution when I already referenced it back here, in my first comment reply to you? Copying and pasting my prior points on it in full:
And now on to your current comment:
Why on Earth would the bolsheviks do this, especially when the Right-Socialist Revolutionaries often sided with the White Army? Why is the assumption that if the bolsheviks imprisoned them, that this must have been on wrong terms? Further, again, Stepan Petrichenko was a tsarist and was the leader of the rebellion.
This is, again, dodging the points I made. First, after the fighting had started, the sailors turned on the council and turned them in, and they were fine afterwards, they weren't all "gotten rid of." Further still, how do you defend their anti-democratic desire to make the bolsheviks unable to be voted for despite their having majority support, and how do you justify the sailors desiring for all communist fighting detachments and cordons to disband? This doesn't take being a Marxist-Leninist to realize that this was strategic suicide, which is why the bolsheviks responded so violently!
нет, comrade. I am not ignoring your points, I am just finally seeing the light thanks to your efforts!
https://hexbear.net/comment/4450214
https://hexbear.net/comment/3796283
https://hexbear.net/comment/6789781
Well done, comrade! I agree, Catalonia is where the USSR shined the most!
https://comlib.encryptionin.space/epubs/this-soviet-world/
You ignored all of them, but that checks out.
If they’re opposed to free elections and secret ballots—as you yourself point out—maybe they don’t in fact represent the will of the people?
The soviets did have secret ballots, and candidates were chosen by consensus building and approval voting. Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan is a great book to describe in detail the system the soviets used for democracy.
Then what’s the problem with item 1 above?
The fact that they wanted to make it so that the bolsheviks could not be voted for, and then immediately elect non-bolsheviks.
That’s not what item 1 says
Correct, item 1 does not exist in a vacuum. The other items were largely about cutting the bolsheviks out of the red army and soviets, dissolving the bolsheviks as a political entity.
Do you mean item 10, that calls for soldiers to elect their officers, and workers to elect local police, as needed, rather than having it imposed on them without their consent?
Item 10 was specifically written so as to remove bolsheviks from millitary detachments, factory management, and more, despite the fact that the bolsheviks were the most popularly supported faction in the civil war. You're romanticizing the sailors, who eventually turned on the tsarist that led the rebellion and refused his order to sink their ships and flee to Finland. Said tsarist then ran off and joined the White Army to keep opposing the communists.