starelfsc2 comments on Save icon

[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

My documents has been the standard location for game saves for probably 20 years. You can say it shouldn't be and you might even be right, but that's the reality and Microsoft KNOWS that's the reality. If appdata is really supposed to be for things like game logs, configuration and saves, can you explain to me why it's hidden by default? How is the average person supposed to copy saves? Back them up? Edit their configuration settings? This is exactly why my documents became the default.

I personally have un-installed onedrive and had it break my file browser such that the onedrive button was still there and any time I accidentally clicked it the file browser froze. I don't think you can chalk up every instance of onedrive slowing down a pc to user error, maybe some other software doing something unexpected + some user error. But again, many people are having issues caused by a software they never wanted. I should be able to be the worst dev ever and do whatever "incorrect" things I want, regardless of what a software I never installed and can't get rid of thinks.

It's also just unexpected behavior, you're telling me just writing to my documents will lag my pc? What if I'm transferring files to my documents while doing something else, now I get massive lag spikes for the crime of putting files somewhere on my computer...? And what if it's pictures I absolutely do not want on Microsoft servers, like medical photos? Am I just required to know Microsoft put software that uploads it without me ever consenting?

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

My documents has been the standard location for game saves for probably 20 years

It shouldn't be, especially since "My Saves" exists (or existed).
We're not talking about saves.

but that’s the reality and Microsoft KNOWS that’s the reality

Microsoft has NOTHING to do with where a developer decides his application will shit its data.

If appdata is really supposed to be for things like game logs, configuration and saves, can you explain to me why it’s hidden by default?

Because none of that is important for the user, unless they're troubleshooting. And if they're troubleshooting, they either know where to look already, or they're googling to find out anyway.

How is the average person supposed to copy saves? Back them up? Edit their configuration settings? This is exactly why my documents became the default.

Again, "My Saves", and we're not talking about saves.

personally have un-installed onedrive and had it break my file browser such that the onedrive button was still there and any time I accidentally clicked it the file browser froze

Don't know when you did that, but there was a time where OneDrive was "hard-coded" into Windows installations and brute-force killing it could break things. Which is why you didn't remove it fully, you just disabled it back then (log out, exit app, check if it's removed from Startup Applications, job done).

Nowadays you can uninstall it easily.

I don’t think you can chalk up every instance of onedrive slowing down a pc to user error, maybe some other software doing something unexpected + some user error.

Do you remember some 1-2 years ago when "debloating" was super popular? Like, every thread on r/Windows about new installations would have people shouting about the need to "debloat" by the use of some script from the Internet?

Do you also remember how that community didn't have a week without a couple "Windows Search is broken!!!!11" threads? You ever notice how the fad for "debloating" died down, these threads also disappeared?

So, yeah, I can absolutely attribute a bunch of obscure issues that were never acknowledged by MS to user error or "malicious" software.

I should be able to be the worst dev ever and do whatever “incorrect” things I want, regardless of what a software I never installed and can’t get rid of thinks.

Yeah, that's not how computers work.

It’s also just unexpected behavior, you’re telling me just writing to my documents will lag my pc?

No.

Or rather: "no, it's not supposed to".

I don't know what logs does Synapse, or whatever similar app, drop in the Documents folder. If it's thousands of operations per minute, there's possibly a chance that OneDrive would trip over and die over this. But having thousands of operations per minute saved in logs, in Documents, is just retarded design in the first place.

Let me put it this way: I develop relatively large scripts for work. I have them all in my OneDrive folder. I will also often unzip software packages into a OneDrive-synced folder. Thousands of files getting dropped out of an archive. I have never had any PC performance issues caused by OneDrive during that time.

And what if it’s pictures I absolutely do not want on Microsoft servers

Don't put them in a synced folder...?

Am I just required to know Microsoft put software that uploads it

Yes, you should know what you're doing on your computer. When you first open it, OneDrive tells you what the Status icons mean, so you should understand which folder is synced and which isn't.

without me ever consenting?

You logging in to OneDrive gave it consent to do the things it's designed to do. If you're fresh-installing Windows and use an MS account, you either get information about OneDrive during OOBE, or you get pop-ups about OneDrive after the installation is completed. Unless you just blindly close anything that isn't your Desktop, you are fully informed to the capabilities of your PC in terms of what OneDrive does and where it does it.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

I have never even heard of the my saves filder and can't find anything about it from searching, do you mean Documents/My Games? And yes we are not talking about saves, we're also talking about config files and potential mods and potential screenshots. Some devs also put logs next to saves in case a game crashed or misbehaved, especially in the case of moddable games. Even non-technical people can read a log and see file not found. I did this when I was 7 years old and had no clue about hidden files or appdata or even how to GET to the C drive, because games just wrote to documents or I would never find anything.

Microsoft has NOTHING to do with where a developer decides his application will shit its data.

Yes and I also have nothing to do with someone turning their car into my lane, but I'm not going to smash into them and say well I was in the right. Microsoft may be fully justified in thinking nothing is in there besides documents that someone actually wants backed up, and they can be fully justified as every user has their games break. Do you know why people blame onedrive and not the game? Because they actually wanted the game.

Because none of that is important for the user, unless they're troubleshooting. And if they're troubleshooting, they either know where to look already, or they're googling to find out anyway.

Config files and mod files are unimportant to the user...? And again troubleshooting as a non-poweruser is still possible if the log says "file not found."

Yes I disabled it when it was hard coded and I sure wish it was job done. It kept running the service even though I had disabled it and then on a later update fully re enabled itself, so my choices are be really confused and have games be broken until I figure out onedrive is back or fully delete it and have a broken file manager.

Yeah, that's not how computers work. Really so if I go on my pc right now and type for i in 0..10000 sleep 1 echo test >> ~/Documents/terriblespot.txt will this cause massive lag spikes in games? What about if I write to /boot just for fun, surely it won't work just fine because it's my computer not Microsoft's.

What you said about opening onedrive is just not accurate, when you first install windows you get a tiny pop-up that says something along the lines of "keep all your files synced in one place!" And I as well as most people click the x. So I was actually just supposed to know that meant "we are actually syncing your folders unless you specifically say not to."

I'm sure onedrive is perfectly fine for work applications, but for anyone that plays any games ever I have told them always uninstall or disable onedrive ASAP. I had actually forgotten that it can lock your documents folder and break games (and I believe other programs too) https://www.reddit.com/r/Sims3/comments/y1mhf8/psa_if_you_arent_able_to_save_on_windows_11_22h2/

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[–] Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

do you mean Documents/My Games

There used to be a "Saved Games" (or some such, can't remember off the top of my head) folder in your user folder (e.g. C:\Users\starelfsc2\Saved Games). If it's no longer there, presumably, MS removed it since practically nobody ever used it. I think it came first with Vista.

And yes we are not talking about saves, we’re also talking about config files

That goes in %programdata%.

potential mods

Inside the game's installation folder.

potential screenshots

That's what the Pictures folder is for..

Some devs also put logs next to saves in case a game crashed or misbehaved, especially in the case of moddable games

I wouldn't mind these showing up in the My Games/Saved Games folder, honestly.

Even non-technical people can read a log and see file not found

Non-technical people who don't know how to find %programdata% won't know what to do with a .log file. They'd need to google that anyway, and in doing so, would learn about Program Data.

Yes and I also have nothing to do with someone turning their car into my lane, but I’m not going to smash into them and say well I was in the right

Of course. You should expect them to NOT drive in your lane.

What you are suggesting instead is that the city council builds another lane just in case someone starts driving on the wrong side of the road.

and they can be fully justified as every user has their games break. Do you know why people blame onedrive and not the game? Because they actually wanted the game.

Mate, I don't know what to tell you. When I was still running Windows on my gaming PC, I had OneDrive enabled. My brother has OneDrive enabled. My wife has OneDrive enabled. Some 90% of my friends and acquaintances have OneDrive enabled. We game a lot, and I mean A LOT. I currently have just shy of 1TB of games installed.

NEVER had I experienced ANY issues with ANY software, games or otherwise, that would be caused by OneDrive just doing its thing.

So, considering this anecdotal evidence, and putting it against the "Reddit threads" of "OneDrive broke something", AND against those where "Search doesn't work!" after a dude broke his Windows with a script he found online - I'm leaning towards the opinion that if someone is having issues with OneDrive, they caused them themselves, somehow.

Config files and mod files are unimportant to the user…?

To the VAST majority of users? Yes, they are. I can't remember the last time I had to fiddle with a config file... 2008? Maybe 2010? As for mods - if you're modding a game, you can spend all of 30 seconds extra to learn where Program Data lives.

And again troubleshooting as a non-poweruser is still possible if the log says “file not found.”

See above.

my choices are be really confused and have games be broken

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on this one. But I already explained that above.

Really so if I go on my pc right now and type for i in 0…10000 sleep 1 echo test >> ~/Documents/terriblespot.txt will this cause massive lag spikes in games?

That's what I'm trying to explain: it SHOULD NOT. If it DOES, then something is broken on your end - either with the software (OS/services/something) or the hardware.

What about if I write to /boot just for fun

Umm, /boot? What's that? That's not a Windows thing.

surely it won’t work just fine because it’s my computer not Microsoft’s.

What are you trying to argue here now? "Microsoft bad" or something more specific?

And I as well as most people click the x

And that's, somehow, Microsoft's fault.........?

So I was actually just supposed to know that meant “we are actually syncing your folders unless you specifically say not to.”

No, you doughnut, you were supposed to click the notification and learn about OneDrive!

I’m sure onedrive is perfectly fine for work applications, but for anyone that plays any games ever I have told them always uninstall or disable onedrive ASAP

Skill issue.

I had actually forgotten that it can lock your documents folder and break games (and I believe other programs too)

That's because it can't, unless you break something.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sims3/comments/y1mhf8/psa_if_you_arent_able_to_save_on_windows_11_22h2/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sims3/comments/y1mhf8/comment/ism2uwm/

Also: my wife was just recently playing Sims3 on Windows 11 and OneDrive on with zero issues.

I mean... Dude, just try. Do a fresh install. Don't run any scripts, don't run any CCleaners or such, don't edit any registry settings, don't install any WinAeroTweaks or such. Just fresh install, log in to where you need to log in (including OneDrive, for the test), install some games and test it out. I guarantee that - barring hardware issues - you'll have a smooth ride.

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[–] starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works 1 point 9 months ago

I wouldn't doubt vista had a saved games folder but Vista was a big outlier. File extensions are hidden by default on windows, so most people see logs as text files. It's easier to see "what's this random text file?" vs digging through your pc to try and find something you don't even know what you're looking for. Again programdata would be fine but it is extremely not obvious to the user because there is no hyperlink to it and it is HIDDEN by default. As a developer if I want the most incompetent users to still be able to find the game files, documents is the only place I have for that. A lot of people don't even know how to open the C drive.

So first of all the notification for onedrive makes no indication it is backing up all your data, or that it's installed,, or that you should really really look at it. At least in windows 8/10, all it said was "all your files in one place!" And as windows has been known to advertise to the user, most people will think this is just an advertisement, not a warning.

What you are suggesting instead is that the city council builds another lane just in case someone starts driving on the wrong side of the road.

Well in this analogy it's more like the car has a built in thing that locks me into going straight so I nick the other car trying to turn out of the way, and the only indication I got of this feature from the manufacturer was "your driving can be made much easier!"

To the VAST majority of users? Yes, they are. I can't remember the last time I had to fiddle with a config file... 2008? Maybe 2010? As for mods - if you're modding a game, you can spend all of 30 seconds extra to learn where Program Data lives.

Sure it's pretty rare, but here are some examples I've done pretty recently.

Editing starcraft 2 configs to get different shadow and lighting settings for better performance

Editing openmw configs to change some settings that weren't in the launcher

Changing some settings in sims 3 to prevent a crash

Changing settings back in a game because the game wouldn't launch after I changed it in game

What are you trying to argue here now? "Microsoft bad" or something more specific? My entire point is why is a program I never installed or wanted causing issues, which is MUCH worse than something I installed causing the problem. You don't know what you don't know, so how would I have any idea what's causing it's? Look through every single program I have installed? If I never opened it surely it's not doing something I never asked for. I don't care what the things I actually installed do, if I think it's stupid a game writes to documents, I can just not install that game. If I think it's stupid onedrive is breaking my games, first I even need to know it's installed and exists, then I need to know what it's doing, then I need to know that oh this might be causing the issue, then I need to know how to remove it.

Even that comment you linked said removing onedrive reduced the issue heavily. As another example my friend just this week had a text file he was reading for a python script and onedrive put a random tag on it that made it break his script (which sounds strikingly similar to that sims 3 thread and similar issues I've heard and experienced over the years). It's fine you and people you know never had issues (though maybe you did and your hardware was just good enough to not notice), but just look up onedrive issues with games, it DOES mess with many users files. You can write 100% of these off to user error or a broken install if you want, but WHY do they have to care about this in the first place for a program they never installed or wanted??? Why is it touching their files at all??

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