mammothtusk comments on Anyone suggest requiring all threads require mention of Taiwan is a country and Tiananmen Square massacre 1989?

Anyone suggest requiring all threads require mention of Taiwan is a country and Tiananmen Square massacre 1989? (kbin.social)

submitted 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) by mammothtusk@kbin.social to c/RedditMigration@kbin.social

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Seems like a win win. Reddit is fine with it and becomes a site promoting that Taiwan is a country and spreading awareness of Tiananmen Square massacre 1989. While subs return to normal.

Or reveals themselves to be the mouth piece of the CCP if they force removal of Taiwan is a country and Tiananmen Square massacre 1989.

Edit: #taiwanisacountry should be enough. That mere statement has been enough for western capitalists to quake in fear.

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[–] mammothtusk@kbin.social [S] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

If TiananmenSquaremassacre1989 is too extreme. Then Taiwan is a country would suffice with it having caused Capitalist hungry Western companies to cave to the might of China and grovel.

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[–] Cloudless@kbin.social 8 points 3 years ago (3 children)

In China, talking about TiananmenSquaremassacre1989 is LESS extreme than saying Taiwan is a country.

The CCP has brainwashed enough citizens to believe that the government did the right thing in 1989, even if you show them the massacre footage. They think the students were terrorists who deserved to be crushed.

On the other hand, most people in China believe that saying Taiwan is a country would be the biggest crime you can imagine.

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[–] tikitaki@kbin.social 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

well the CCP has effectively incorporated Tiananmen Square into the propaganda. it's become a part of the national narrative - it was "a conflicted time where there were bad decisions made by both sides and they learned from it and are stronger today because of it." - please don't call me a tankie i'm trying to summarize CCP narrative

so it's not really taboo to talk about in China like people assume it is. same thing with the cultural revolution. I read the "three body problem" series by a Chinese author (really good books, if anybody likes sci-fi) and I was amazed at how critical he was of the cultural revolution

and i checked, and he's not an ex-patriate or anything.. he lives in China and released a book that became internationally succesful that was critical of the chinese government during the cultural revolution

it turns out that the CCP actually does allow some level of critique - because they view themselves today as a different party than existed 30 or 50 years ago.

Taiwan, on the other hand, is a current issue. Personally, I feel bad for the taiwanese that don't want to be integrated into China but it does seem like an inevitability at this point.

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[–] btaf45@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

Taiwan, on the other hand, is a current issue. Personally, I feel bad for the taiwanese that don't want to be integrated into China but it does seem like an inevitability at this point.

Not a problem as long as Taipei remains where the government of China is located for a few decades.

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[–] tikitaki@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

i'm not sure what you are trying to say. you mean taiwan just needs to stay de facto independent for another few decades and they will be OK? maybe you are right, but to call Taiwan "the government of China" is to ignore reality

point being look who has a seat at the UN

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[–] btaf45@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago* (1 child)

I am saying that if there is any unification of Taiwan with China, than the ruling government needs to be the Republic of China whose current capital is in Taipei, and former capitals in Nanjing and Chungking, and definitely not the illegitimate PRC dictatorship in Beijing. That is the only possible way China can be reunited. Taipei would need to be the capital for awhile so everybody knows who rules the country, and eventually move the capital back to Nanjing perhaps.

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[–] tikitaki@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

while pretending like this might be fun for you, reality is it's never going to happen. even if CCP falls apart, the state apparatus in mainland China for whatever fills the void would still be stronger than Taiwan. They're like 2 factors of magnitude larger. and that's assuming CCP falls apart - the momentum doesn't seem to be going in that direction

It's like saying Texas will be independent again one day. It's a larp

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[–] btaf45@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago* (1 child)

CCP doesn't need to "fall apart". China just needs to progress in a new direction. If China goes democratic, and someday it will, it could be wise to leverage Taiwan's democracy to make the entire process more stable. This is what happened in Germany. West Germany's government simply absorbed the former East Germany. So for a time the West German capital of Bonn was the capital of the unified Germany.

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[–] tikitaki@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

differences between west germany / east germany v taiwan / china

1 - population

east germany 1989 - Around 16 million
west germany 1989 - Around 62 million
east germany was about 1/4th the size of west germany in terms of population

taiwan current - Around 23 million
china current - Around 1.4 billion
china has about 61x the population of taiwan in terms of population

2 - gdp

east germany 1989 - around $300 billion
west germany 1989 - around $1.5 trillion
east germany was about 1/5th the size of west germany in terms of GDP

taiwan current - around $760 billion
china current - around $17 trillion
china has about 13x the size of taiwan's GDP

3 - time period separated

germany - around 41 years
china - around 74 years
china and taiwan have been separated nearly double the time as germany - with no reunification in sight

So in the case of East Germany vs West Germany, the West was significantly larger both in terms of GDP and population. West Germany was about 4x~5x bigger and was able to incorporate the East because they were bigger. In addition, they were separated for a shorter amount of time.. the longer it goes on the more complicated it gets.

If we look at Taiwan and China, Chinese economy and population is somewhere between 1 and 2 factors of magnitude larger. Taiwan simply does not have the capacity to incorporate China. The state apparatus in mainland China is absolutely massive - it's hard to fathom how many bureaucrats are needed to effectively run that country.

Having said all that, looking at the future of China, I sincerely doubt there will be a democratic revolution. The approval rating for the CCP is very high (much higher than democratic countries in the West). China has historically been authoritarian. They have taken the capitalist model and effectively used it in an authoritarian state. It works well for them and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Of course, nobody can tell the future. With the accelerating pace of technology and the inevitable climate change and who knows how much radical change there will be in the coming decades.

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[–] btaf45@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago* (1 child)

The approval rating for the CCP is very high (much higher than democratic countries in the West).

First of all NEVER EVER believe that a dictatorship has a "very high approval rating". (1) the people have never approved them ever, and (2) If their approval rating really was "very high", there would be no reason at all not to allow democracy. (3) naive westerners have a long and famous history about being repeatedly conned by dictatorships.

And 2nd LOL that is obvious BS. This happened LESS THAN A YEAR AGO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_COVID-19_protests_in_China

differences between west germany / east germany v taiwan / china

Dude, I already knew all that stuff. So what? None of that is relevant to what I said. The fact remains that (1) Taiwan's government could be extremely useful in helping China convert to democracy in a stable manner, and (2) It is totally impossible for Taiwan to unify with China unless China becomes democratic like Taiwan. So since #2 is a necessity, it follow that #1 will always be a very important consideration.

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[–] tikitaki@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

taiwanese government could be extremely useful in helping China convert to democracy in a stable manner

there are 10 million bureaucrats in china

that's already half of the population of taiwan alone. the city of shanghai has a bigger population than taiwan

So what? None of that is relevant to what I said.

yes, it is. it's logistically impossible. i tried to elaborate on why because to hold a belief like you do someone must not know all of the obvious facts

It is totally impossible for Taiwan to unify with China unless China becomes democratic like Taiwan

it's very possible. it's happening right now in Hong Kong. China just takes over and slowly integrates it and removes the democracy bit by bit. I think it's so strange how you make a comment pretending reality is some way when it isn't. I get it - I support Taiwan too. I prefer Democracies over authoritarian regimes. But let's be real here

First of all NEVER EVER believe that a dictatorship has a "very high approval rating".

independent organizations have done studies in China. they really do support the CCP. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/

it's sort of a side effect from the "heavenly mandate" idea in China. they've always had authoritarian leaders. as long as the economy is doing well the people tolerate anything. and china has been growing fast for decades now

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[–] btaf45@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

there are 10 million bureaucrats in china

Who can very easily take orders from Taipei

yes, it is. it's logistically impossible.

It's not. The PRC simply needs to apply become part of the Republic of China again. That is literally all it takes. The rest is just details.

they really do support the CCP.

They really do not. We've had the Covid protests, the Hong Kong protests, and the Democracy Wall protests. When the Communist dictatorship is overthrown, it will happen fast, and Taiwan's help will be needed for their expertise in democracy. Also, the current dictator is literally the very worse one since 1976.

independent organizations have done studies in China.

It is literally impossible for "independent organizations" to objectively "study China". But in general dictatorships NEVER have more than 15-25% or so of the population. Your stance that Chinese do not want freedom and democracy and control over their own country seems racist. Your stance that only white people want and are capable of having freedom and democracy is totally obsurd.

it's very possible. it's happening right now in Hong Kong.

Because Britain foolishly turned control of Hong Kong to Beijing instead of Taipei. If China tried to invade Taiwan it would result in another Ukraine situation, where the entire free world unites against the imperialist aggressors.

I support Taiwan too. I prefer Democracies over authoritarian regimes.

No you don't. Let's be real here. You are an apologist for the Communist tyranny. You do not understand how obvious it is but no American would ever say what you said.

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[–] tikitaki@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago

i think you need to disconnect your ideology from the analysis. you will never see beyond your nose if you take ideology too seriously in these types of affairs

It is literally impossible for "independent organizations" to objectively "study China".

there have been many smarter people than you or I doing analysis of CCP approval rating and it's always much much higher than our democratic countries in the west. read the article i sent you from harvard. look up more on google. or put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, whatever. again - doesn't change the reality of the situation

people are pleased that their economic position is much better than their grandparents. and as long as economic growth keeps happening, that will remain true.

No you don't. Let's be real here. You are an apologist for the Communist tyranny. You do not understand how obvious it is but no American would ever say what you said.

i don't like to put my head in the sand and pretend like ideology trumps reality. no matter how much i prefer a free open society i have read the research. i have seen the news. i know CCP has higher approval rating than any democratic country. this isn't one or two studies. this is the consensus for decades.

chinese people are happy with CCP. same thing with Putin in Russia. just because a country is authoritarian and brutal does not mean they cannot have high approval ratings. the difference is they are contingent on a few very important things

china is economic growth. putin is not appearing weak - making russians feel strong. if CCP cannot guarantee that economic growth for too long a period of time, it will fall apart. they lose the "heavenly mandate"

Your stance that only white people want and are capable of having freedom and democracy is totally obsurd.

no it's "obsurd" that you totally ignore the opinions of 1.4 billion people in China. read some chinese history. the emperor had the mandate and everything ran smoothly or he didn't and there was civil war.

government legitimacy means different things for different forms of government

having said all that, you are not truly wanting to discuss geopolitics here. you want to larp and play a game of alt-history and that's fine i guess but at least put a disclaimer

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[–] xuxebiko@kbin.social 2 points 3 years ago

The most foolproof way to piss of the Chinese is to say "Taiwan, Number 1".

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[–] btaf45@kbin.social 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

I feel like Taiwan is not a country but that the real government of China is located in Taipei.

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[–] Cylusthevirus@kbin.social 2 points 3 years ago

I think people don't understand you're claiming that the CCP are illegitimate and that the government in Taipei on Taiwan is the actual valid government of China. Or, more or less the opposite of what the CCP likes to claim.

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