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Linus Torvalds goes back to a mechanical keyboard (www.theregister.com)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/mechanical_keyboards@programming.dev
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[–] 5 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

I've wondered about Alps.

I am on a constant quest to find something as close to buckling spring keys as possible; so far, I've failed. No matter how much I max out tactile or clicky, there's simply no substitute. I could just get a Unicomp, but they don't make ergonomic, column staggered keyboards, and my hand health is more important to me than even the peerless tactile experience of buckling spring.

I've heard that Alps are about the closest you can get; I've never encountered a keyboard with Alps keys to test, though. Have you used both? How do you think they compare?

I'm using Choc Browns right now; I got sucked into the whole low profile aesthetic. While I like the layout of my Piantor Pro and would keep that, I'd give up the low profile for anything closer to buckling springs.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    If you want buckling springs I would just get those and put up with the layout, as you say, nothing else is going to be exactly the same. I find alps and mx switches more predictable typing experience but lack the same feel and are just not as loud in the same way.

    Blue or Amber Alps would be my pick if you can find a board in the layout you want that supports Alps. I strongly recommend trying them before you invest, whites used to be cheaper than blues, so if you might get lucky with preferring whites and save some cash.

    Zeal Clickiez are probably the closest to what you are going to get out of MX that I have tried, although I had to spring swap to get the feel how I prefer. They are not cheap especially when you add in new springs.

    You can always ball bearing mod the MX switches to add in some extra thocc.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I can't do the layout anymore. RSI.

    not as loud in the same way.

    It's not the loud; it's the way they click. Increasing tension until they buckle and then all tension is released.

    I used to have close to 100WPM on a Model M. I've never been able to get over 80. Could be age, but I think the predictability and certainty of the keypress played a large part. You know, without any doubt, when you've got a positive keypress on a buckling spring.

    Have you ever tried the Matias Click? I've read they're the closest thing to buckling spring on the market.

    I wish there was a way to test drive them. I could buy some and seat them in something, but I don't think I'd really be able to tell without a full keyboard and a typing test. That's always been the issue: accessability.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    They are just retooled Alps Blues, and because of this are very similar to Alps Blues. I would rate them as worse than the very best reclaimed Alps Blues but the Matias give you a way to get 80% of the way there without having to go through the hassle of finding and cleaning a full keyboards worth of top quality switches from donor boards or paying a premium for someone else to get them for you. I do not rate either as an exact match for buckling.

    If you aren't trying to replicate the sound then I would just go down the tactile route rather than clicky switches. Having to add a click mechanism (leaf or bar or something else) introduces areas for rattle, scratch and other problems. Granted a good and strong click mechanism can be a tactile moment in itself, you can get very similar from a good tactile switch without a lot of the potential problems caused by the click mechanism.

    Have you considered that your RSI might be caused by the buckling springs? They are pretty heavy to type on all day every day and I switch to a keyboard that is lighter spring weight than I would normally use when I have a day of document writing to avoid such pain in my fingers, my preference is for my 40% topre board as that's still really tactile. My normal preference is pretty heavy progressive spring (as labeled by Spirt, its not a true progressive, more like a cliff face) with weights around 60 to 80g. I like higher weights as it means more tactility from the switch. Just a thought.

    Alps (and Matias Alps) are painful to get and test in a working state because as you say you need a full board that has to be soldered in. There is the the added pain that the alps might not even be in good condition. MX obviously you can use a hot swap board and it super easy to get hold of brand new switches, make frankenswitches, and so on. Only real answer I have for this is to try and get to keyboard meet ups, not going to work for everyone but otherwise you pretty stuck unless you can buy with a good return policy.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Alps Blues aren't made anymore? That's a bummer. I thought I saw they made Clears and that those were close to Blues.

    My RSI is unrelated to the keys. I've used dozens of keyboards over the past decades, including several ergonomic keyboards with really squishy keys. What helped most was a combination of switching to Dvorak - a decade before Colemak was even a gleam in Shai's eye; switching to a split keyboard, the Microsoft ergonomic split was the first one, and I used versions of it for years before Microsoft utterly ruined the perfectly good design they'd acquired; and most recently switching to column stagger, which took care of the last persistent pinky pain. I've used Kinesis Freestyles at work and home - exceedingly squishy, utterly no tactile, and super inaccurate for my typing style. I had an ErgoDox for years, which I thought was also low on the tactile even if it was noisy. I only recently got a truly mechanical keyboard - custom built by Beekeeb because I'm a hazard with a soldering iron, and I chose the most tactile Chocs available, and they're not even a tactile as the ErgoDox.

    Thinking back, I can say I guarantee my RSI isn't related to tactile switches because I don't think I've ever owned anything I'd consider tactile, since the Model M. Clicky, yes; tactile? Barely.

    My issue is that I can't justify buying a bunch of different keyboards with different switches to try to find the right switch; and I honestly am really bad at soldering. Like, disastrously, expensively bad. Maybe I could buy a variety bag of switches and find one based on a 1-finger test, but I know from experience that that's no substitute for time on a full keyboard, and can indeed be very misleading.

    The MX plug & play route might work, if I can find a keyboard with the right layout. My hands are large, and I can span a full octave on the piano, and I've found a split with aggressive column stagger is the most natural resting position for my hands. I'm hobbled by how specific the particulars are.

    The Piantor Pro I currently have is the right layout. If I can find something like it with MX, I could try some other switches.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I didn't think Alps made any switches directly anymore but I might be wrong. Its a risk with any retooled or continuation line such as with the Matias that they aren't as good. Even with a long running line like actual Cherry switches they quality went off as the molds got older, hence the (unwarranted) obsession from some quarters for vintage blacks.

    Clickly switches are almost always tactile, especially the buckling spring. The feel that you describe as desirable is a (very nice) tactile bump, it just happens to be wrapped up in the click event as with most clicky switches. You have to get a good linear to completely avoid that bump, or dial it out with something softer. Buckling is known for being aggressive/strong, its what makes them feel like they do. MX you can turn up the tactile simply by changing the spring for a stiffer spring most of the time.

    I hear you with Alps, they are painful to get hold of good ones. MX at least you can turn almost any board into hotswap by soldering mill-max hotswap sockets into the pins (as long as it is not too low profile), I have done it a few times and its pretty easy, easier than SMD by far. I know you wouldn't want to solder yourself, but it would be cheap enough to find someone to do it for to online.

    That Piantor Pro looks similar to the Corne, not sure if thats close enough to do what you need for testing. They are pretty cheap with a 3D printed base plate and can come ready soldered with kalih hotswap sockets already on them for you.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That Piantor Pro looks similar to the Corne

    It is; the stagger is a more aggressive, especially on the weak side of the hand, and of course it has that additional column, but you can see the inspiration.

    A Corne would work for testing switches, for sure. IIRC I could have ordered the Piantor with swappable, but I was seduced - seduced, I say! - by those beautiful Chocs. It's my first non-mass-produced keyboard, and I didn't know any better. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Nothing wrong with chocs, I have a low profile Zinc with choc jades that I swapped the click bar for my usual stronger click bar on and some stiffer springs. They were an absolute nightmare to mod compared to MX switches but worth it.

    Old photo of it:

    Best of luck with your search for the perfect switch!

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