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fuck this (mander.xyz)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by to c/science_memes@mander.xyz
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Friendly reminder: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/yes-science-is-political/

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[+] -10 points 2 years ago (12 children)

Blocking roads in protest has proven effective at exactly one thing: Increasing the enforcement and penalties for jaywalking.

It is counterproductive at everything else.

did you think that huddling on sidewalks holding signs was supposed to do something?

Where did I say huddle on sidewalks?

I think JSO should be firebombing ICE car dealerships, gas stations, muffler shops, and other entities and agents of the oil industry. Not harassing victims of that industry.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    Blocking roads in protest has proven effective at exactly one thing: Increasing the enforcement and penalties for jaywalking.

    Well... no.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (8 children)

    Excellent retort, but I can cite the legislative record supporting my point.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (7 children)

    I can cite many news articles which show that protesting in this way is more effective.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (6 children)

    No doubt, no doubt. There are plenty of articles claiming JSO protests are effective.

    Of course, if they were actually effective, you wouldn't need to point to news articles promoting the virtues of standing around in the street. You'd be able to point to oil consumption rates. If their protests were actually effective, oil consumption rates would be falling.

    The reality is that those articles do nothing but make you feel good, like something is being done. But reality doesn't care about feelings, or the fiddling articles designed to make us feel good while the world burns.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (5 children)

    If that is the only metric you are looking it, kind of. It slumped during COVID and has looked like it's tailing off somewhat. Without tax breaks, subsidies and support for other forms of transport, say, we will not shake our dependence.

    But, we can look at specific countries and see if those things have helped on a national scale, like Norway, for example, which has seen consumption decline since 2018. And Sweden. And Japan. And Germany. And...

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (4 children)

    Norway, for example, which has seen consumption decline since 2018.

    They started obstructing traffic in 2022, not 2018. Norway's consumption has increased, significantly, since they began obstructing traffic.

    Japan's decline since then is commensurate with its population decline. Germany's and Sweden's are flat. UK is up even more than Norway.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

    I am telling you when their trend started. Norway's consumption has not increased, it is down on 2018, as I said. It had a slight decline in 2023 (the increase between 2020 and 2022 is when people stopped driving during COVID then came back to restart its downward trend).

    Japan’s decline since then is commensurate with its population decline.

    Actually no, if you know what commensurate means. The population has dropped around 4% since 2008, yet oil consumption has been decreasing since 1996.

    Germany is similar in terms of consumption, Sweden likewise.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/oil-consumption-by-country

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

    JSO didn't exist in 1996 or 2008 or 2018 or 2020. It was founded in 2022.

    You're giving JSO traffic obstructions credit for declines that happened decades before they came into existence, and in countries where they havent actually disrupted traffic.

    You're giving them credit for "declines" that have actually been increases since the time they started regularly obstructing traffic in 2022.

    Obstructing traffic is not an effective means of protest. Target actual agents and entities associated with the oil industry, not the victims.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Sigh... and how would you like to quantify that when there are so many factors?

    Obstructing traffic is not an effective means of protest. Target actual agents and entities associated with the oil industry, not the victims.

    They are effective and bring about awareness among other things.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    and how would you like to quantify that

    I would like to spend less time talking to environmentalists about useless people harassing victims of the oil industry, and more time actually targeting the oil industry.

    For that, you don't need to identify massive, centralized oil infrastructure. You need to look at the oil industry's agents and operations within your own community. There is no shortage of businesses associated with the supplies and maintenance of ICE vehicles. Every one of those businesses needs to feel direct pressure to focus on EVs, other transportation alternatives, or go out of business.

    Gas/petrol stations and car dealerships, for example. Set a standard for them to follow; target them for an appropriate degree of hostility when they don't.

    • For gas stations, they can install at least as many EV charging stations as they have fuel pumps.

    • For dealerships, they must offer more EVs than ICE vehicles, and the sticker price of those EVs must be equal to or lower than comparable ICE vehicles.

    Businesses that meet these standards are supporting the "transportation" industry. Businesses that fail to meet these standards are supporting the "oil" industry.

    JSO's website makes it clear that "arrests" are an important part of their demonstrations. There are plenty of arrest-worthy actions they can take at a gas station. They can create plenty of "awareness" at an ICE car dealership, and they can do it without convincing the general public to support cops and right-wing politicians.

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