▲ 2112 ▼ fuck this (mander.xyz) submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by fossilesque@mander.xyz to c/science_memes@mander.xyz 671 comments fedilink hide all child comments Friendly reminder: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/yes-science-is-political/
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -52 points 2 years ago (17 children) If it has a limit, it’s not free If I can’t do a Nazi salute, then I can’t say “I want to shoot Donald Trump in the face” permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 56 points 2 years ago (5 children) If it has a limit, it’s not free "Free bread sticks" "I'll take 100" "Um... No. You can't have that many." "iF tHeRe'S a LiMiT iT's NoT fReE!" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -27 points 2 years ago (4 children) Don’t be pedantic. A limit would be “free breadsticks only if you decide to pray to our god in front of us.” If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it, that is illegal, as Verizon and AT&T found out in court permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it When did the American Constitution promise "Unlimited Speech"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) It doesn’t. It says free, meaning unencumbered. The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free so it was disingenuous and I was countering it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free Nothing free is unlimited. Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits. Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base. Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.) Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba. permalink fedilink source parent [–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 years ago* If it has a limit, it’s not free Don’t be pedantic Bruh... your pedantry started this permalink fedilink source parent [–] ReasonableHat@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago (2 children) So should there be any penalty for lying under oath? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -23 points 2 years ago (1 child) No, because it is unconstitutional to put someone under oath By definition, it means a solemn promise that is beholden to a deity therefore it is illegitimate in court and law by the First Amendment. You probably also think it should not be legal to kill people that break into your house to steal your TV. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] ReasonableHat@lemmy.world 19 points 2 years ago Fair enough. I think the discussion ends there; I cannot use reason to dissuade you from a position that you clearly did not use reason to get yourself into. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ComicalMayhem@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago (1 child) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -12 points 2 years ago Society and laws are at the mercy of those who are in control. Right now in the US it is the Trump administration, but I remember Barack Obama saying, “I’ve got a pen, and I’ve got a phone,” emphasizing his ability to take executive action without waiting for Congress to push his agenda forward. That’s not freedom. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SLVRDRGN@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago (3 children) Scream "Fire" at a theater. Obviously you cannot. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -11 points 2 years ago (2 children) The phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” is outdated and legally irrelevant to modern free speech discussions. Its origin from Schenck v. United States (1919) was overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), which set a much higher standard for restricting speech. Modern First Amendment doctrine protects almost all speech unless it directly incites imminent violence or crime. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -9 points 2 years ago No. Even that limitation is unconstitutional. Look up the actual convictions and appeal rates for them The most recent one is just a couple of months old where a guy threatened Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, over 100 times on the phone and he only got probation because the judge knew the prison sentence wouldn’t withstand appeal. permalink fedilink source parent [–] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 2 points 2 years ago If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. (Karl Popper) permalink fedilink source parent [–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 point 2 years ago Nah. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 56 points 2 years ago (5 children) If it has a limit, it’s not free "Free bread sticks" "I'll take 100" "Um... No. You can't have that many." "iF tHeRe'S a LiMiT iT's NoT fReE!" permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -27 points 2 years ago (4 children) Don’t be pedantic. A limit would be “free breadsticks only if you decide to pray to our god in front of us.” If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it, that is illegal, as Verizon and AT&T found out in court permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it When did the American Constitution promise "Unlimited Speech"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) It doesn’t. It says free, meaning unencumbered. The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free so it was disingenuous and I was countering it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free Nothing free is unlimited. Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits. Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base. Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.) Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba. permalink fedilink source parent [–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 years ago* If it has a limit, it’s not free Don’t be pedantic Bruh... your pedantry started this permalink fedilink source parent
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -27 points 2 years ago (4 children) Don’t be pedantic. A limit would be “free breadsticks only if you decide to pray to our god in front of us.” If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it, that is illegal, as Verizon and AT&T found out in court permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it When did the American Constitution promise "Unlimited Speech"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) It doesn’t. It says free, meaning unencumbered. The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free so it was disingenuous and I was countering it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free Nothing free is unlimited. Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits. Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base. Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.) Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba. permalink fedilink source parent [–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 years ago* If it has a limit, it’s not free Don’t be pedantic Bruh... your pedantry started this permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it When did the American Constitution promise "Unlimited Speech"? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) It doesn’t. It says free, meaning unencumbered. The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free so it was disingenuous and I was countering it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free Nothing free is unlimited. Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits. Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base. Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.) Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) It doesn’t. It says free, meaning unencumbered. The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free so it was disingenuous and I was countering it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free Nothing free is unlimited. Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits. Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base. Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.) Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free Nothing free is unlimited. Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits. Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base. Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.) Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 years ago* If it has a limit, it’s not free Don’t be pedantic Bruh... your pedantry started this permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ReasonableHat@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago (2 children) So should there be any penalty for lying under oath? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -23 points 2 years ago (1 child) No, because it is unconstitutional to put someone under oath By definition, it means a solemn promise that is beholden to a deity therefore it is illegitimate in court and law by the First Amendment. You probably also think it should not be legal to kill people that break into your house to steal your TV. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] ReasonableHat@lemmy.world 19 points 2 years ago Fair enough. I think the discussion ends there; I cannot use reason to dissuade you from a position that you clearly did not use reason to get yourself into. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -23 points 2 years ago (1 child) No, because it is unconstitutional to put someone under oath By definition, it means a solemn promise that is beholden to a deity therefore it is illegitimate in court and law by the First Amendment. You probably also think it should not be legal to kill people that break into your house to steal your TV. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] ReasonableHat@lemmy.world 19 points 2 years ago Fair enough. I think the discussion ends there; I cannot use reason to dissuade you from a position that you clearly did not use reason to get yourself into. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ReasonableHat@lemmy.world 19 points 2 years ago Fair enough. I think the discussion ends there; I cannot use reason to dissuade you from a position that you clearly did not use reason to get yourself into. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ComicalMayhem@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago (1 child) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -12 points 2 years ago Society and laws are at the mercy of those who are in control. Right now in the US it is the Trump administration, but I remember Barack Obama saying, “I’ve got a pen, and I’ve got a phone,” emphasizing his ability to take executive action without waiting for Congress to push his agenda forward. That’s not freedom. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -12 points 2 years ago Society and laws are at the mercy of those who are in control. Right now in the US it is the Trump administration, but I remember Barack Obama saying, “I’ve got a pen, and I’ve got a phone,” emphasizing his ability to take executive action without waiting for Congress to push his agenda forward. That’s not freedom. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SLVRDRGN@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago (3 children) Scream "Fire" at a theater. Obviously you cannot. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -11 points 2 years ago (2 children) The phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” is outdated and legally irrelevant to modern free speech discussions. Its origin from Schenck v. United States (1919) was overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), which set a much higher standard for restricting speech. Modern First Amendment doctrine protects almost all speech unless it directly incites imminent violence or crime. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -9 points 2 years ago No. Even that limitation is unconstitutional. Look up the actual convictions and appeal rates for them The most recent one is just a couple of months old where a guy threatened Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, over 100 times on the phone and he only got probation because the judge knew the prison sentence wouldn’t withstand appeal. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -11 points 2 years ago (2 children) The phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” is outdated and legally irrelevant to modern free speech discussions. Its origin from Schenck v. United States (1919) was overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), which set a much higher standard for restricting speech. Modern First Amendment doctrine protects almost all speech unless it directly incites imminent violence or crime. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -9 points 2 years ago No. Even that limitation is unconstitutional. Look up the actual convictions and appeal rates for them The most recent one is just a couple of months old where a guy threatened Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, over 100 times on the phone and he only got probation because the judge knew the prison sentence wouldn’t withstand appeal. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -9 points 2 years ago No. Even that limitation is unconstitutional. Look up the actual convictions and appeal rates for them The most recent one is just a couple of months old where a guy threatened Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, over 100 times on the phone and he only got probation because the judge knew the prison sentence wouldn’t withstand appeal. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] MisanthropiCynic@lemm.ee -9 points 2 years ago No. Even that limitation is unconstitutional. Look up the actual convictions and appeal rates for them The most recent one is just a couple of months old where a guy threatened Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, over 100 times on the phone and he only got probation because the judge knew the prison sentence wouldn’t withstand appeal. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 2 points 2 years ago If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. (Karl Popper) permalink fedilink source parent