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evergreen meme (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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[–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Oh so we're moving on from the topic of a working example of Marxism then. Why because I posted some links on the topic?

We aren't moving from it, I don't see what cherry-picking has to do with the subject at hand.

You really went to what-about? I provided sources as to why they aren't examples of working Marxism and you did a what about.

No, you provided a single example of the CPC doing something bad in the context of a country with citizen approval of the CPC at 95.6%. It is important to compare the US and other non-Marxist states because your point appears to be that Capitalism is better than Marxism.

I'm frustrated enough trying to have a reasonable debate with people who think that they have the right to tell others what they can or cannot do. I don't pretend I can tell others what to do. I don't think our system is perfect. I'm not about to pretend that a revolution will end up better than where it started. Historically, it's rare. Even when it happens, it doesn't last.

What do you mean by saying I have the right to "tell others what they can or cannot do?" That doesn't make any sense, are you arguing against the French Revolution, Haitian Revolution, etc.?

Additionally, Revolution absolutely improved Cuba, Russia, Haiti, China, France, etc. You have to be arguing for fascist slavery, Tsarist Monarchy, colonial slavery, colonial nationalism, and monarchism to be better than what came after. I hope you aren't a fascism or slavery supporter.

Revolutions are as inevitable as the people who are willing to cooperate to make things better allow. In other words, it's completely evitable.

Capitalism itself decays over time, conditions get worse. The Capitalist class will not willingly hand over the reigns and improve society via giving up power.

I think treating folks fairly and not exploiting labor is a good idea. Marxism hasn't led us there historically.

It has.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    We aren’t moving from it, I don’t see what cherry-picking has to do with the subject at hand.

    No, you provided a single example of the CPC doing something bad in the context of a country with citizen approval of the CPC at >95.6%. It is important to compare the US and other non-Marxist states because your point appears to be that Capitalism is better >than Marxism.

    My argument is that violent revolution doesn't seem to work out as well as advertised, especially with Marxism. The Chinese revolution killed millions of people, many who were innocent. All to end up with an oligarchy ruling over them and fabricating statistics.

    Who is cherry picking? Everyone knows that China's economic data is much worse than the official numbers. Just how big are the lies?

    Abstract: China's statistics are widely viewed as unreliable...

    What do you mean by saying I have the right to “tell others what they can or cannot do?” That doesn’t make any sense, are you >arguing against the French Revolution, Haitian Revolution, etc.?

    By Tell others, I mean just that. Marxism may have started out wonderfully ideal. In reality if you express opinions outside of the acceptable party lines - You are silenced or worse. This is true of all of your examples of Marxism.

    China From the Report: "The government continued to systematically target human rights defenders..."

    Cuba From the Report: "Surveillance and harassment of activists, opponents, journalists and artists continued to be widespread. Arbitrary detention and criminal processes without fair trial guarantees remained common and people deprived of liberty faced harsh prison conditions."

    Definitely not telling folks what to do. Definitely Ideals to hold up in arguments.

    I'm concerned for America too. I didn't hold them up as an ideal. USA

    The French Revolution didn't kill its intended targets. Except for that whole mishap, totally worked out. They punished the wrong people and led to a decent system for a while. (https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/01/why-is-france-so-corrupt-fillon-macron-le-pen/)

    The American Revolution seems good on paper. It worked for awhile. Citizens United is an issue to me. Admittedly didn't read everything about the Haitian revolution, though slaves(opressed) rising up against their opressors has a bit of schadenfreude in it for me.

    Those didn't end up in regimes that are not (at least temporarily) governed by their people.

    Additionally, Revolution absolutely improved Cuba, Russia, Haiti, China, France, etc. You have to be arguing for fascist slavery, Tsarist >Monarchy, colonial slavery, colonial nationalism, and monarchism to be better than what came after. I hope you aren’t a fascism or >slavery supporter.

    I disagree that revolution has resulted in the best possible position for Cuba, Russa, China and other Marxist regimes you've held up.

    As stated, I'm not for telling people what to do. Doesn't seem as if you asked, but I'm against slave labor, authoritarianism, patriarchies, colonialism, corporotocracy and feudalism. Not all revolutions have ended poorly, they have almost all been very bloody.

    Capitalism itself decays over time, conditions get worse. The Capitalist class will not willingly hand over the reigns and improve >society via giving up power.

    Capitalism never died in the places you think Marxism ruled.

    It has.

    Thanks for providing the wonderful shining examples of: Russia(what remains of the USSR), China, & Cuba.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    My argument is that violent revolution doesn't seem to work out as well as advertised, especially with Marxism. The Chinese revolution killed millions of people, many who were innocent. All to end up with an oligarchy ruling over them and fabricating statistics.

    This is false. The Chinese Revolution against the Nationalists was bloody, yes, but was caused by Nationalist oppression. What they have now is a functional state with high approval ratings (and no evidence shown of fabricated approval ratings or oligarchy on your part). They aren't perfect, but they are much better off.

    Articles from Salon and Cambridge, both of which include vast and thorough references like English Bankers saying "I don't believe the numbers." Lmao

    By Tell others, I mean just that. Marxism may have started out wonderfully ideal. In reality if you express opinions outside of the acceptable party lines - You are silenced or worse. This is true of all of your examples of Marxism.

    This happens under Capitalism, to a worse degree.

    Definitely not telling folks what to do. Definitely Ideals to hold up in arguments.

    You're using Amnesty.org as a resource, a far-right think-tank. This doesn't look better for you.

    I disagree that revolution has resulted in the best possible position for Cuba, Russa, China and other Marxist regimes you've held up.

    With nothing to support your claims, of course, just your latent chauvanism, where you think you have an "enlightened western brain" rather than letting countries govern themselves.

    As stated, I'm not for telling people what to do. Doesn't seem as if you asked, but I'm against slave labor, authoritarianism, patriarchies, colonialism, corporotocracy and feudalism.

    Except you did defend them against improvements like Marxism.

    Capitalism never died in the places you think Marxism ruled

    It was drastically reduced or outright eliminated, and these countries are better for it.

    More Amnesty.org links, more western chauvanism, it's clear you'll continue batting for fascists.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago*

    This is false. The Chinese Revolution against the Nationalists was bloody, yes, but was caused by Nationalist oppression. What they have now is a functional state with high approval >ratings (and no evidence shown of fabricated approval ratings or oligarchy on your part). They aren’t perfect, but they are much better off.

    Thanks for providing counter examples of how they aren't fabricating data. Since you claim it's only about banks

    As noted, I'm against telling people what to do. Fascists and Marxists do that historically. Your response isn't well they're better and they don't do that.

    This happens under Capitalism, to a worse degree.

    All Vibes, no substance.

    Except you did defend them against improvements like Marxism.

    I asked you to provide examples of Marxism being a better working system. We haven't gotten there yet. We still have to prove Marxism is a workable improvement over existing systems.

    It was drastically reduced or outright eliminated, and these countries are better for it.

    All Vibes, no substance. Where's your source?

    Who is Amnesty.org From the Link: They're not just one nationality or think tank. It's a global movement of more than 10 million people which campaigns for a world where human rights are enjoyed by all.

    Their stated vision: is of a world where those in power keep their promises, respect international law and are held to account.

    Your stated vision: Establish a single ruling party to (tell everyone what to do) ensure everyone pays tribute to a single party that makes sweeping rules over everyone, and lies to everyone about what they're actually doing.

    They'll become nobles of the in clique who get to exploit the proles for their labor and resources. If you disagree with the in clique, guess you go back to being a lowly worker.

    How it is: Where China is now Express too much dissent and you can't even get public transit tickets. Banned from buying tickets

    More Amnesty.org links, more western chauvanism, it’s clear you’ll continue batting for fascists.

    As stated. Not about telling people how they have to do things. Not a nationalist. You're trying to attack me now? We're debating ideas. You accused me of all vibes no substance. I start providing substance and you switch to all vibe. Again I attest, you are arguing in bad faith.

    Keep saying fake news. You sound like you work for Trump, a solid fascist. Do you?

    I am so glad you provided sources to back up your... Postive Vibes.

    That link you didn't provide, it is totally convincing everyone that the humanitarian reports are entirely fabricated.

    The reports coming from independent journalists and screen recordings of folks being threatened for expressing dissent. Fake news according to you?

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