this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
931 points (95.3% liked)
Fuck Cars
9593 readers
495 users here now
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
Rules
1. Be Civil
You may not agree on ideas, but please do not be needlessly rude or insulting to other people in this community.
2. No hate speech
Don't discriminate or disparage people on the basis of sex, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or sexuality.
3. Don't harass people
Don't follow people you disagree with into multiple threads or into PMs to insult, disparage, or otherwise attack them. And certainly don't doxx any non-public figures.
4. Stay on topic
This community is about cars, their externalities in society, car-dependency, and solutions to these.
5. No reposts
Do not repost content that has already been posted in this community.
Moderator discretion will be used to judge reports with regard to the above rules.
Posting Guidelines
In the absence of a flair system on lemmy yet, let’s try to make it easier to scan through posts by type in here by using tags:
- [meta] for discussions/suggestions about this community itself
- [article] for news articles
- [blog] for any blog-style content
- [video] for video resources
- [academic] for academic studies and sources
- [discussion] for text post questions, rants, and/or discussions
- [meme] for memes
- [image] for any non-meme images
- [misc] for anything that doesn’t fall cleanly into any of the other categories
Recommended communities:
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I live in a very walkable and bikable city and yet plenty of people choose to drive here most every chance they get. They think biking is for poor people.
I love in a mid walkable city and don't even own a car, but every time I arrive at the gym (which is one block away from a transit hub), the parking lot is jam packed
That is quite sad. It's a self perpetuating thing. People think biking is too hard or unsafe (or for poor people), and so they drive. Because so many keep driving, it doesn't get much safer and the progress toward better bike infrastructure can be quite a slow roll. And sometimes that progress gets reversed :'(
I used to try and bike everywhere I could but I had a few scary situations happen. Close calls, getting screamed at, and threats, one guy jumped out of his car even...it was discouraging and so now I prefer walking or public transportation honestly.
I live in a small Australian city designed by an American when America was first embracing highways. It has a city centre which had until recently only a thousand single family homes within walking distance*, then there are suburbs accessed by small highways (typically 2 lanes each way)
But it has reasonable public transport, and good bike paths between suburbia and the city away from the highways (or if you prefer, on painted lanes on some of the highways)
*Now we have mixed use towers in town
My part of suburbia to town is 20 minutes by car, 40 in peak, 45 minutes by express bus in peak, 55mins to 1hr 15 by off peak bus, and about an hour by the isolated bike path, 45 mins by the painted bike lanes (and sometimes nothing)
Canberra?
Correct, the southern part, hence no mention of a tram
I hear (from Sydney) that it's quite controversial
You genuinely believe this is the reason people choose to drive when they have the option to bike?
Is it seriously so unfathomable to consider some people just prefer to drive?
It often is said out loud so yes I believe it's often the case
I wish I knew why they prefer to drive. It is obvious, that they do, but the reason is hard to understand for me. Going by bike is faster, healthier, cheaper, helps reduce emissions of all sorts and sets you up for a happier mindset.
A seemingly absurd reason like "people think biking is for poor people" doesn't seem to be so absurd after all, considering the enormous amount of people deciding to take the car instead of the bike. It at least has to be one of the reasons, it's just a matter of probability.
I believe we also need better bikes - like velomobiles except designed easier to get in and out and less claustrophobic. Something like the podbike but non-electric. An enclosed space is something the car has that people want. Also recumbent bikes are more comfortable to ride. Something like a "velocar".
I hate bicycles, they hurt my ass. I'm trying to build my own recumbent tadpole atm and want to build a velocar later.
I think if you want it to be easy to get in and out of, crank forward, or feet forward bicycles are a pretty good idea, like the rans bicycles, the day 6 bicycles, stuff like that. The tradeoff being that the front profile is kind of bunk on those in terms of the aerodynamics, at least, at the cost of the weight it would take to cover it, like a true velomobile. We also gotta ask why you're covering it. If it's just safety from weather elements, that's fine, but it brings other problems, like the enclosed space getting pretty hot if you leave it sitting around, like the shell needing to be visible while still in the rain, and easily see-through, too, which is more of a problem when you don't have windshield wipers, and when your window's more slanted, like what it is on most velomobiles that have windows. If you're adding A/C or heat for thermal regulation, those take up space and weight. Also would probably be a good idea for defogging the window, which is probably a larger concern in an enclosed space where you're sweating a lot more. I dunno, I've just seen a lot of these "bike car" concepts, like the twike, or the podbike, and I haven't seen much come of any of them, because they're just too fuckin heavy, and at least in america, everyone's concerned with what might happen if a driver gets distracted by this weird little bean floating around everywhere, and what happens if they get into a crash. Maybe one might have more luck by cutting weight, adding photovoltaic cells to power some of the electric systems, and then just chasing the maximum aero, like what aptera's done, but yeah, I haven't seen anyone actually tackle the problem in a way that makes much sense. I'm also gonna shout out the problem of these being much harder to park than a normal bike on a bike rack. You already see that with recumbents, but you see that even more with velomobiles, and that inefficient stacking might work out to be more concerning at scale, with mass deployment.
It's also kind of inherently a niche product, with a low market demand, and so that drives up the costs for people who would otherwise be fine with the idea, and that's all maybe a bigger problem than anything I've said thus far. Those who would be interested are probably going to be fine swapping out all the subsystems, and if they're doing that, they're probably just interested in buying your canopy, more than anything else, in buying your shell. I think you're seeing technology play catch-up in terms of e-bikes, but most people at this point are better suited to your standard moped. The honda super cub is still the best selling motor vehicle of all time, and if I remember right, it's not really even close. People are more willing to dress for the weather, and tolerate that, if they're not also powering the vehicle, and working up a sweat.
Thanks for the reply, you're clearly well informed about all the issues. I have some ideas but those are tough problems.
Yeah normal SWB recumbent bicycles are the easiest to hop oh and off and do improve aerodynamics. Personally I also want to build a MBB flevobike design where you steer with your feet, people say they are very fun to ride. Generally recumbents are faster, more comfortable and safer (lower to the ground) than upright.
For velomobiles, the podbike is pioneering the "low entry hurdle". Not having to "climb in" but just "step in and sit down"" makes a huge difference in marketing I believe. Getting in and out doesn't have to be that tricky like with pure velomobiles, the orca velomobile also improved this. You don't really need compromises to make that happen and you reduce the "niche" factor.
Yeah windscreen with rain and condensation is why the best practice right now is to only have a tiny visor that can have advanced coating or double glass motorcycle visor. There are potential solutions for larger windscreen but it gets tricky, like heated glass or coatings or double panels or design of a new type of aerodynamic wiper, real glass on the outside to avoid scratches etc.
One reason why I think covering it is important is because an enclosed "private" space is what makes cars so popular. I can't exactly put my finger on it but if velomobiles could replicate that feeling of "being in your own car" it could make these types of "velocars" more popular and lead to less people driving cars.
Again, Podbike is the best design for this but it's too heavy (65kg) and doesn't have efficient mechanical transmission. But they have a ton of interest and preorders because they consequently designed to make it appealing - if they could get the costs down to say 1000-2000€ for something like that and lighter, you would be looking at a massive market. Price is the major hurdle really but that is a question of investment and maybe subsidies. And maybe robotics to build them. Or ship them from China.
I don't see why that would be inherent. You're right that scooters or pedelecs have inherent advantages in a dense city, but for medium commutes I don't see a fundamental hurdle for velo cars. If the cycle infrastructure is improved too. There are might be technical solutions to improve turning radius.
You can also stand the podbike vertically on it's back to save parking space. Not sure how practical that is though haha.
And yeah there are a lot of too heavy velo car concepts. We need to find the right compromise between pure velomobile (e.g quest, quadro etc) and a more practical and open inviting velomobile.