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Four Eyes Principle (discuss.tchncs.de)
submitted 5 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[-] [email protected] 106 points 5 days ago

My knowledge on this is several years old, but back then, there were some types of medical imaging where AI consistently outperformed all humans at diagnosis. They used existing data to give both humans and AI the same images and asked them to make a diagnosis, already knowing the correct answer. Sometimes, even when humans reviewed the image after knowing the answer, they couldn't figure out why the AI was right. It would be hard to imagine that AI has gotten worse in the following years.

When it comes to my health, I simply want the best outcomes possible, so whatever method gets the best outcomes, I want to use that method. If humans are better than AI, then I want humans. If AI is better, then I want AI. I think this sentiment will not be uncommon, but I'm not going to sacrifice my health so that somebody else can keep their job. There's a lot of other things that I would sacrifice, but not my health.

[-] [email protected] 73 points 5 days ago

iirc the reason it isn't used still is because even with it being trained by highly skilled professionals, it had some pretty bad biases with race and gender, and was only as accurate as it was with white, male patients.

Plus the publicly released results were fairly cherry picked for their quality.

[-] [email protected] 34 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Medical sciences in general have terrible gender and racial biases. My basic understanding is that it has got better in the past 10 years or so, but past scientific literature is littered with inaccuracies that we are still going along with. I'm thinking drugs specifically, but I suspect it generalizes.

[-] [email protected] 20 points 5 days ago

Yeah, there were also several stories where the AI just detected that all the pictures of the illness had e.g. a ruler in them, whereas the control pictures did not. It's easy to produce impressive results when your methodology sucks. And unfortunately, those results will get reported on before peer reviews are in and before others have attempted to reproduce the results.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 5 days ago

That reminds me, pretty sure at least one of these ai medical tests it was reading metadata that included the diagnosis on the input image.

[-] [email protected] 23 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

My favourite story about it was that one time when neural network trained on x-rays to recognise tumors I think, was performing amazingly at study, better than any human could.
Later it turned out that the network trained on real life x-rays with confirmed cases, and it was looking for penmarks. Penmarks mean the photo was studied by several doctors, which mean it's more likely to be the case that needed second opinion, which more often than not means there is a tumour. Which obviously means that if the case wasn't studied by humans before, the machine performed worse than random chance.
That's the problem with neural networks, it's incredibly hard to figure out what exactly is happening under the hood, and you can never be sure about anything.
And I'm not even talking about LLM, those are completely different level of bullshit

[-] [email protected] 7 points 4 days ago

That's why too high a level of accuracy in ML is always something that makes me squint... I don't trust it, as an AI researcher and engineer, you have to do the due diligence in understanding your data well before you start training.

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[-] [email protected] 31 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

That's because the medical one (particularly good ar spotti g cancerous cell clusters) was a pattern and image recognition ai not a plagiarism machine spewing out fresh word salad.

LLMs are not AI

[-] [email protected] 30 points 5 days ago

They are AI, but to be fair, it’s an extraordinarily broad field. Even the venerable A* Pathfinding algorithm technically counts as AI.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 5 days ago

One of the large issues was while they had very good rates of correct diagnosis, they also had higher false positive rates. A false cancer diagnosis can seriously hurt people for example

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[-] [email protected] 16 points 5 days ago

The important thing to know here is that those AI were trained by very experienced radiologists who are physicians that specialize in reading imaging. The AI's wouldn't have this capability if the humans didn't train them.

Also, the imaging that AI performs well with is fairly specific, and there are many kinds of imaging techniques and diagnostic applications that the AI is still very bad at.

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[-] [email protected] 18 points 4 days ago

Expert systems were already supposed to revolutionize medicine .... in the 1980s.

Medicine's guilds won't permit loss of their jobs.

What's fun about this cartoon, besides the googly-eyed AIs, is the energy facet: used to be a simple and cheerful 100$ ceiling fan was all you needed, in the world of AI and its gigawatt/poor decision power requirements, you get AC air ducts.

[-] [email protected] 20 points 4 days ago

Can't wait to be diagnosed with "good catch, I will fix-"

[-] [email protected] 8 points 4 days ago

That's correct — and you're right to point out this common reply by AI chat boxes. Let's breakdown why that happens:

📝 LLMs are predictive models: When a specific pattern shows up a lot in the training data set — like your example reply, the LLM will be more likely to reply in a similar way in the future, just like when people walk through a patch of grass and create a visible path. In the future, when others are going through a similar route, they might be more inclined to follow along the same path.

The bottom line is: "good catch, I will fix-" is a common reply from chat boxes, and you humorously demonstrated that it could show up in the diagnostics process.

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[-] [email protected] 60 points 5 days ago

It's called progress because the cost in frame 4 is just a tenth what it was in frame 1.
Of course prices will still increase, but think of the PROFITS!

[-] [email protected] 39 points 5 days ago

Also, there'll be no one to blame for mistakes! Failures are just software errors and can be shrugged off! Increase profits and pay less for insurance! What's not to like?

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[-] [email protected] 31 points 5 days ago

I want to see Dr House make a rude comment to the chatbot that replaced all of his medical staff

[-] [email protected] 23 points 4 days ago

Imagine an episode of House, but everyone except House is an AI. And he's getting more and more frustrated by them spewing nonsense after nonsense, while they get more and more appeasing.

"You idiot AI, it is not lupus! It is never lupus!"

"I am very sorry, you are right. The condition referred to Lupus does obviously not exist, and I am sorry that I wasted your time with this incorrect suggestion. Further analysis of the patient's condition leads me to suspect it is lupus."

[-] [email protected] 28 points 5 days ago

They can't possibly train for every possible scenario.

AI: "Pregnant, 94% confidence"
Patient: "I confess, I shoved an umbrella up my asshole. Don't send me to a gynecologist please!"

[-] [email protected] 15 points 4 days ago

Ok, I give up, where's loss?

[-] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

If you're working class, look in the mirror

[-] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago

The loss is the jobs we lost along the way.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 4 days ago

The loss is the ~~jobs~~ lives we lost along the way.

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[-] [email protected] 26 points 5 days ago

I hate AI slop as much as the next guy but aren’t medical diagnoses and detecting abnormalities in scans/x-rays something that generative models are actually good at?

[-] [email protected] 43 points 5 days ago

They don't use the generative models for this. The AI's that do this kind of work are trained on carefully curated data and have a very narrow scope that they are good at.

[-] [email protected] 15 points 5 days ago

That brings up a significant problem - there are widely different things that are called AI. My company's customers are using AI for biochem and pharm research, protein folding, and other science stuff.

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 5 days ago

Yeah, those models are referred to as "discriminative AI". Basically, if you heard about "AI" from around 2018 until 2022, that's what was meant.

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this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2025
652 points (96.8% liked)

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