Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try [email protected]
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [email protected] or [email protected].
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email [email protected]. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
A burial is a ceremony where the living show their respect to the deceased. The larger/more extravagant the bureal, the greater the (financial) sacrifice, the greater the respect for the person and their actions.
Everyone who thinks Hitler should have received a state burial (whether by the allies or by his supprters) is definitely a nazi.
Reagan and Thatcher can rest in piss. Extrapolate my answer from there, I guess.
My family had an interesting experience with this
My mom's cousin was a wonderful woman, I don't think there is anyone who would have anything bad to say about her.
Her husband was a piece of shit. I'm not going to go into all of the ways he was a shitty person, I'll just leave it at he was an illiterate moron who wasted all of their money, never held down a job for long, weighed probably well in excess of 300lbs (my mom, who is not petite by any definition, could fit in one of his pant legs) bought stupid cars and all kinds of shit for himself, and his wife had very little despite usually being the sole breadwinner of their household.
She got sick, my mom helped make arrangements for what would happen with their dogs when she passed because fat ass definitely wasn't going to take care of them.
The day she died my mom was over helping take care of her, I was on my way over to pick up the dogs, I'm a couple blocks away and get a frantic call from my mom telling me not to come over, because he came downstairs with a shotgun and was talking about ending it.
I pulled up outside, my mom met me at the porch. He'd calmed down a little, I made sure cops had been called.
I go inside, there's her cousin gasping for air beating down deaths door on the couch. He's sitting in the kitchen, fucking around on his computer, distraught but not even giving a moment's thought to his wife dying in the other room. He's clearly more upset that no one's going to take care of him than anything else. The shotgun is leaning in the corner of the kitchen.
We decide it's best if I don't stay long and I don't pick up the dogs at that time.
I get on my way, cops come soon after, confiscate all of his guns. She passes, my mom gets the dogs and gets them to their new homes.
Fat ass never has a funeral for her, and definitely never tried to reach out to any of us.
Some months later my mom and grandmother are going to check out a new store that recently opened. They were driving near that house, and fat ass, being who he was, had recently purchased a ridiculous new Camaro, probably with life insurance money that most people would have used for a funeral.
My mom makes a small detour to drive by and show my grandmother that car, when they see several police cars and an ambulance turn down the same road, and sure enough they stop right in front of the house.
My mom pulls up and asks what's going on, afraid that maybe he had done something to the neighbors, they've had issues before.
Turns out that they'd gotten a 911 call from the house, from a woman, who I don't believe was never identified, we suspect probably a prostitute.
Fatass had a heart attack and keeled over dead.
She called 911, grabbed his computer and maybe a few other small valuables, nothing in particular that we noticed missing, and ran off never to be heard from again.
Good for her.
My mom was still listed as the executrix of their wills, so it fell on her to untangle their debts, see what could be salvaged, etc. it wasn't much.
I'm especially salty about the whole situation because the house originally belonged to my mom's aunt/he cousins mother. It had been paid off years ago, and at one point the plan had been for the house to be left to me, since her daughter didn't have any kids, and most other branches of that side of the family were also dead-ends, I sort of represented the future of the family.
But when her daughter married fatass, since he kept wasting all of their money she let them move in because they would have probably been homeless otherwise, and they got the house when she died. They took out loans against the house, he didn't really keep up with any sort of maintenance, etc. to call it a fixer-upper would have been an understatement.
My mom's main priority was to have a proper funeral for her cousin, and had her ashes buried.
She never bothered to claim his remains from the coroner's office. They tried to reach out to his kids from other relationships, other relatives, etc. and none of them wanted anything to do with him either.
After a certain amount of time, the coroner's office here cremates the remains, and if they're still not claimed I believe they eventually have them scattered or buried somewhere.
I'm not someone who cares much about what happens with my, or anyone else's body, once they die. Once you're dead you're dead, and your corpse deserves no more respect than any other slab of expiring meat. I'd just as soon throw bodies unceremoniously into an industrial composter.
Many people of course have a different idea of that, and I'm willing to respect their beliefs.
But I think fatass should be more-or-less the model we should follow for bad people. Everything is carried out respectfully, but without ceremony, no fancy headstones, no elaborate funeral ceremony, and no easy way for mourners and kooks to make a pilgrimage site from it.
In some cases where religion and culture and such dictate that a body shouldn't be cremated, I would support burial at sea, unmarked graves, or plain graves in in an area where they can be visited by family but not the general public.
Bury them as soon as they are convicted.
One good way to answer your question is to ask the exact opposite question: why wouldn't they deserve decent funeral?
How would it help anyone to refuse decent funerals to a dead body? No matter their crime, the 'real bad guy' is now dead and is no more. It's a body not a person anymore.
And then, one may want to consider this question: why would anyone want to punish innocent people (the family of the 'real bad guy' has committed no crime, right?) by refusing them the right to pay respect to the deceased? And if it is somehow right to punish the family for crimes they have not committed, have they been (secretly and silently) trialed? By whom and for what crime exactly? And who was their defendant?
One may also want to question their desire to hate so much on a person as to hate their corpse and then, once again, to apply their hate onto innocent people, aka the family of the 'real bad guy'.
I generally agree, but there are two addenda.
First: Even the worst should be burried with dignity, because their behaviour is not the standard by which we measure our actions. Nobody is so evil that they can take our will to be decent human beings. So we do the right thing (decent burrial) to spite evil.
Second: With dignity is not the same as "with reverence" or "with honor". In many cultures criminals are denied certain parts of funeral rites (like processions, official or acknowledged mourning periods). This reinforces social norms to the living (don't do the bad thing or you will be shunned by society) and can also prevent retraumatizing their victims. The most common form of this is not allowing to have their gravesite marked. This is done so that their family may have a place of grief (the unmarked grave) but to prevent the grave from becoming either a shrine to their followers or a target of defilement by the victims. A fairly well known example of the last part is Adolf Hitler who was properly buried in an unknown location and then a parking lot was put over the area with the possible grave sites.
I'm inclined to treat the body with what I would call "professionalism". You are not emotionally attached beyond the desire to do your job well. Though I am not opposed to some people getting a burial at sea. The better for them to be forgotten.
When they tossed the corpse of Osama Bin Laden into the sea, it wasn't just because no country's soil would take him, but to respect his religion, where in Islam cremation is considered a desecration. So they showed him the respect of a burial at sea, even though he was our enemy.
That one also has the aspect of avoiding a deliberate insult. Desecrate the corpse and you risk turning it into a Thing™ that people might rally around.
killing him does that too, but people rally a little less around a relatively restrained killing of a valid military target and unremarkable handling of the body.
I personally don't even know how to answer this question myself. Like the funeral isn't even for the dead. Its for the living.
You are exactly on the right track.
It is only for the living. The dead one is not affected in any way anymore, whatever you do.
So to me, the question seems like, should the relatives of a bad person be allowed to see the corpse treated respectfully.
Turn the question around and it becomes easy:
Should the relatives of a bad person get punished along with him? Obviously not. They deserve the full, normal respect. So let them have the burial as they wish it.
Yes, because compassion is what makes us better then them.
pedantry is what makes some better than others :p
Decency is a decision you make about who you are. It's not about them.
You can only be evil when you are alive. In death we are all rotting meat, neither good or evil.
Not entirely true, when memorials are built to an evil person which perpetuates their evil, that evil survives the mortal coil.
It's why after taking DNA samples, Osama Bin Laden was thrown in the ocean, and Hitlers bunker was built over and his body disposed of by the KGB. Evil lives on.
Does rotten meat care about its burial at all?
Yes but not for the reasons people are stating here. Dead people are dead. They don’t deserve a damn thing, whether saint or sinner.
Burial is for the living. So it’s up to the next of kin how to go organize it. Since those people are typically innocent of the crimes of the deceased, their behavior has little or no relevance to what sort of burial there will be, unless it affects how those people might wish to go about it.
The worst person in the world, while living, looses all consideration for how they're treated. At that point, it's not about what they deserve as much as it's about living up to our own standards for how we compose ourselves.
We don't feed evil people to rabid hogs not because they don't deserve it, but because we respect ourselves more than that.
Likewise, everyone deserves a baseline level of dignity in death because that's a standard we hold ourselves to.
It's not for them.
It's not for them. Exactly.
We don't choose not to speak ill of the dead because we're going to like offend the Dead or that we're going to invoke some sort of spiritual curse on ourselves.
We choose not to speak ill of the Dead so that the people who still miss them and love them and care for them won't live in a world where the people that they care about are being slandered.
It just saves everybody a whole lot of grief if you let the dead be the dead and move on.
Sure, if you have a personal grudge against the person then that's a different story but if you did not ever interact with that person and they are a bad person then just let them be dead and let them fuck off into non-existence.
nah
This is a question that is at least older than feudalism - the Greek tragedy Antigone deals with this question. And the answer, like always, is that desecrating a corpse is bad and dangerous and don't do it, family is gonna be pissed and rightly so.
Even if it's funny as shit that there were heads on sticks on top of Parliament for a while.
They should get respectful burials as they will become gender-neutral bathrooms for eternity.
burial and cremation, as practices, should be be dispensed with altogether.
i want my eventual corpse to be donated to a green burial.
Or, alternatively
No but in all seriousness you're absolutely right. Green burial needs to be normalized.
Volunteers among both their loved ones and their victims should vote on every aspect of it. /j
Is desecrating their corpse going to deter them from further bad actions in the future? No? Then let's not.
It might deter other people from bad actions.
I don't have an opinion on that, but I do think they don't deserve us to call them by their names. Having their name go down in history is what they want — referring to them descriptively (eg. 'the tyrant who took over Nazi Germany') takes the focus away from the person and puts it on their horrible actions – which anyone with those traits, not necessarily just A**** ****** could have done.
Odd thing to fixate on, but yes. We ought to spend our energy on the terrible people still alive. Who cares what they do to the demon husks once they can’t hurt anyone anymore? Bury it with flowers and fireworks for all I care. Let’s focus on the suffering of the living.
The thing is, other shitty people care. They see how we treat dead shitty people and, because humans are irrational, see it as a reward for their behaviour in life. That's also why I'm against the notion of not speaking ill of the dead - no, people need to realise that they won't be respected when they're dead if they were shitty.
I know it doesn't matter, rationally. But humans are weird and care about what people will think when they're gone.
Oh I have random throughts all the time. I read an article about the US sending SEALs to kill a designated terrorist leader and they gave him a burial according to his culture, so I just though that was very interesting. Like I expected military people to just burn or mutilate the body.
the story to fixate upon there is how the cia located bin laden in the first place -- by having agents pose as international aid workers dispensing the polio vaccine in pakistan.
this one act has led to a distrust in aid workers in that country and the flourishing of polio. countless innocent lives ruined, but i'm sure uncle sam considers those as adequate compensation against killing one man who had sequestered hinself away with his goats and his porn.
we should care less about how that one man was buried then and more about how the polio-ridden corpses of children are treated today.
I hope my questions don't come across as me dismissing or distrusting what you are saying, but this is the first I've heard about this information and I find it interesting.
When you say that it caused a distrust in aid workers, where did this distrust come from, and where did it end up? To rephrase, from my understanding, bin Laden wasn't exactly a good guy locally either, so if civilians found out that he was taken out with the help of undercover aid workers, would that not strengthen the trust that the aid workers were there to help? The only people that should be wary after finding this out would be his supporters, no?
Unless the fear is more of an outside force interfering with your government, good or bad, which is more understandable, especially in a time and place where information wasn't as readily available. I'm sure it's obvious, but I'm a US citizen, and though I absolutely detest the man and his following, I'd be pretty fucking concerned if China had Trump popped.
I, for one, am kind of relieved that military personnel have respect for their adversaries.
Well believe it or not most people in the military are human beings, not bloodthirsty monsters that burn and mutilate bodies. Osama's burial was done the way it was for pretty good reasons. Imagine the uproar and additional violence that would have happened if it came out that his body was treated like you say. It would have cost even more lives.
As long as I get my dumpster burial I think even bad people can have the burial of their dreams.
Bruh why are you trying to terrify those poor sanitation workers?
I want a Viking dumpster burial with all the fixins, no sanitation workers are needed
Lol I though you wanted to throw your body like on the curb where they pick up the trash lol
There was a serial paedophile killer in the UK who killed (after doing other things) someone I know's daughter. When he died, he was cremated and dumped in the ocean in an undisclosed location from a boat. This was only released after the fact.
there's a huge debate on what "bad" means.
but if we skip that and just single out an opinion, like for my opinion, the dead bad person isn't affecting me anymore so I just let it go.
should the relatives of a bad person be allowed to see the corpse treated respectfully
good question. afaik, i haven't heard of countries or governments trying to own corpses.
...
i was wrong
Yes. No exception. Period.
Because the burial is not for the dead themselves, but for anyone left behind.
No matter how vile a person is, it's likely that they had at least a person or two who miss them.
A counter point is should those folks see the dead person’s vile behavior normalized? Are people smart enough to differentiate?
