News
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
view the rest of the comments
Which of these apply to the situation needs to be decided by a court, right?
Let’s try a different situation: the loaded gun is locked up in a cupboard. The child knows about the gun and the key. The key is easily accessible to the child.
Do you think the law applies in this case?
The way the law defines secured, that would be secured. If the law did not define secured, maybe not.
The law defines secure as follows:
46.13 3)
“Secure” means to take steps that a reasonable person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
How do you see the described situation matching that description?
The container is locked, which is explicitly described as secured. How easy the lock is defeated is not mentioned.
How is that a step a reasonable person would take?
And how would that be a reasonable interpretation of the law?
Because it's explicitly included in the definition as a step a reasonable person would take. It's not the only step they may take (maybe they hide it instead), but the law is written to be that permissive.
They did not have to add that definition when they passed the bill. They did it to make the law more permissive as to what "secured" meant.
No reasonable person considers a box locked or secure when the keys are right next to it.
You would not consider your money safe in a lockbox under the same condition.
Arguing otherwise is quite obviously bad faith.
I'm trying to explain to you that the definition "steps a reasonable person would make" includes "in a locked container." You could argue a container with the key literally in the lock isn't locked but the definition you have to use when interpreting the law is the one the law itself provides.
No, it’s not. The locked container is just one of the examples for steps a reasonable person could take. The emphasis of the wording is clear.
The way in which you try to twist the wording is another display of bad faith arguing.
I don't really understand what you think I'm doing in bad faith. You're focused on situations where a locked container isn't reasonable by your definition. The problem is they included the example to specifically make that a step a reasonable person would take. Reasonable is a legal fiction that is influenced by jury instructions that would specifically include this. I'll ask you to contrast that to this model legislation that actually addresses your concerns:
https://www.justice.gov/d9/2023-12/Safe%20Storage%20Model%20Legislation.pdf
You are trying beyond all reason to misinterpret what 'reasonable person' means and in extension what can reaonably be called securely locked. It's gotten pretty outlandish.
The document you linked is a very interesting read as it takes stock of currently existing law and attempts to clear up question you might have about implementation. It states as such in several places on page 1. Page 4 indeed clears up what can be considered what a 'reasonable person' or 'average Joe' has to do to properly store a weapon.
Since you also attack the legal concept of 'reasonable person': The reasonable person is a hypothetical individual who exercises average caution, care, and judgment in their conduct.
So unless there's a lot of lead in the water, the average person would not leave keys to a lockbox that contains valuables or dangerous items that allows someone else, let alone an 8yo have access to it.